Subaru Head Gaskets Problems Explained Part II
Subaru Head Gaskets Explained part II
In this article I am going to cover the current trends with the Subaru Head gasket problem focusing only on the phase 2 2.5l SOHC from 1999 to 2011 in the Forester and 2000 to 2009 in the Legacy, Outback and Impreza with an emphasis on the 2005 and newer models. This article is going to be fairly long as there really is a lot of information that I want to share. I had thought about breaking it up into two smaller articles but realized that the one read without the other would leave to many questions unanswered so please take the time to read the article in its entirety and hopefully you will have learned a little more about your Subaru. If you have not yet had a chance to read the first article and the over 1000 posts for Subaru Owners around the Globe you can do so here
If you are taking the time to read this then you most likely are doing a little research before you buy a used Subaru or you already own a Subaru of this era and have either recently been told you have a head gasket leak or are just taking the time to learn a little about the car you own.
Head gaskets in a phase two 2.5l can leak in three very different ways.
The first is an external coolant leak typically from the driver’s or left side head gasket, this affected the pre 2003 models specifically and ultimately led to the WWP-99 campaign where Subaru added a “coolant conditioner” otherwise known as stop leak and extended the warranty period to 8 years or 100k for external coolant leaks only. This is found doing a visual inspection of the bottom side of the engine for fluid leaks, which should be done every oil change by a qualified Technician who does not work at a lube center.
The second type of leak is an external oil leak and while it’s true that any car can and will develop an external oil leak from the head gasket, the design of the horizontal engine platform lends itself to a situation where the smallest of oil leaks is immediately apparent in the form of a drip. This is found while performing a visual inspection of the bottom side of the engine for fluid leaks, which should be done every oil change by a qualified Technician who still does not work at a lube center.
I want to stress that just because you have not yet seen fluid in your driveway does not mean you do not have a fluid leak from a head gasket. Subaru models have a splash pan with a fibrous pad (that I call a diaper), this must be removed to inspect for leaks. The pad also does an incredible job of soaking up oil and coolant.
The third and final type of a head gasket leak on a phase two 2.5l is an internal failure of the gasket resulting in a breach between the combustion chamber and the cooling system which will ultimately cause the vehicle to overheat and is often misdiagnosed by many at the early stages which can increase the likelihood of future problems such as high oil consumption after repairs.
You may have already seen some pictures like the ones below highlighting where the gasket material has been eaten away.
Phase 2 Subaru 2.5l SOHC Head Gasket
Subaru 2.5l Phase Two Head Gasket
Gaskets that have had this much head gasket material deteriorate away most likely leaked fluid for a while before finally being replaced which is fairly typical. Generally speaking it is an acceptable practice of our shop to monitor minor oil leaks for our customers and advise them as they become worse or begin to leak coolant. I will tell you that for some customers we have been monitoring oil leaks for 5 years or longer and others have had the repairs done a few oil changes after first being informed about the situation. Why I really like this way of dealing with the external fluid leaks is it gives the driver a bit of time to either budget for the repairs, if the car still suits their needs, or come up with a plan to move on if the Subaru no longer fits the family. If you really think it through to conclusion its not too often that you actually are awarded the opportunity to make a big decision over time, many times an expensive repair like this happens as quickly; such as a transmission failure or broken timing belt giving you no notice and even less time to budget for the repair.
When a head gasket fails like this one below the situation can be much more dire.
Internal Failure of Aftermarket Subaru Head Gasket
This head gasket has had a breach in between the cooling system and the combustion chamber allowing both pressure and temperature from the combustion chamber into the cooling system. There are two very distinctive issues that happen with this type of failure. The cooling system can only handle so much pressure in fact in terms of cooling system pressure the radiator cap will allow coolant to flow into the cooling system overflow bottle at pressures around 15 psi. depending on which model of Subaru you have. Now imagine 175 lbs. of pressure coming into the cooling system from the combustion chamber. Next the increased pressure thats coming into the cooling system is also very hot as combustion temperatures can vary but will typically be well over 500 degrees Fahrenheit, and there isn’t a coolant temperature gauge ever put into a production vehicle that will read that kind of temperature. This further increases the pressure in the cooling system as the higher the temperature the higher the pressure. This increase in temperature and pressure is something the cooling system just can’t contend with. What happens next is the coolant in the radiator is pushed into the overflow bottle to the point that the overflow tank is now full and begins to spill coolant out of the tank and onto the ground until finally the engines cooling system is low and the engine overheats. As I have mentioned before in the first article and I am still amazed and even years and years later this very simple fact seems to escape so many technicians across our nation. I have had to often wonder if either they have had no real education, or just lack the ability to truly understand the internal combustion engine. We have replaced Honda, Toyota and Nissan Head Gaskets at our shop as well and have looked for internal failures the same way as we do for the Subaru.
Testing for internal failures is not a difficult task but I have responded to well over a thousand replies in the first head gasket article, many start out with the same story, the Subaru began to run hot but didn’t overheat, then it overheated, then a shop replaced the thermostat, then the radiator, then the cooling fans, then the kitchen sink, then threw in the towel.
Below is another head gasket with a breach in the gasket area between the cooling system and the combustion chamber.
Please look at it closely, and picture what I am about to explain.
Internal Failure of Head Gasket on a Subaru 2.5l
When the engine is cold the breach does not affect the seal of the gasket as much and may actually still seal when the cooling system is pressure checked at 15 to 20 lbs. of pressure when the engine is cool. Doing a compression test on a relatively cool to warm engine may also not reveal any issue. Performing a leak down test may show a percentage of leakage, but almost always 10 to 20% to the crankcase as again until the engine is at normal operating temperature the piston rings are not fully expanded into the cylinder walls improving the “seal”.
The smaller the breach such as in this picture, the less likely you will find it with any of the above test procedures.
Internal Failure of Subaru Head Gaskets
What must be done instead to find the smallest of internal leaks at an early and manageable stage is to look for the presence of combustion chamber gases also known as exhaust in the cooling system. The single easiest exhaust gas to identify is HC or hydrocarbon emissions but this needs to be done one and one way only and thats with an exhaust gas analyzer in good working order! You must run the Subaru hard and get it up to operating temperature before looking for this failure as it may not show up just idling along under no load and with less combustion events happening.
Looking for Failed Subaru Head Gaskets
Testing For Internal Failure of the Head Gaskets
You see as I mentioned at the beginning that testing cold would yield different results than testing when hot. Temperature causes expansion, expansion of the cylinder head away from the engine block, expansion of the gasket away from the block, and now that breach in the gasket becomes a bigger issue. Compound that with the combustion events happening in the combustion chamber at higher RPMS meaning there are more of them! The relentless pressure put to the weakened head gasket is more than it can contend with. Now that the engine is running at the extremes which is coincidentally almost always the same way it over heats for the driver but seldom the way that many attempt to test for failures. If you have an overheating situation in your Subaru and it has not been tested, exactly as I have presented above; and the shop is still stumped; the reason for that is it has not been tested! Its not feasible to do a compression or leak-down test on an engine that is hot, as you will burn your self or damage the spark plug threads removing the plug and inserting the tools.
I have now covered the three different ways a head gasket can fail. Let’s now focus on prevention. As you have seen in the pictures above the gasket material was eaten away, this happens in a few different ways and you really need to understand what you own and take care of it accordingly. The horizontally opposed engine has many benefits which is why Subaru has stuck with it and Toyota has also looked to Subaru for an engine for a sports car. I won’t list all of the marketing points behind the boxer here, but please do your own research and understand how it enables a capable, safe, AWD platform unmatched at its price point.
The single biggest back to a boxer engine is that the critical engine fluids such as coolant and oil will remain in contact with the gaskets as opposed to an Inline or V engine the fluids drain down or only contact the side of a gasket rather than gravity forcing it to stay on top. This is where Subaru has kind of gotten themselves in trouble in my opinion as the maintenance aspects of a Boxer need to be different than that of an inline 4 cylinder engine for example. If the oil is contaminated with fuel, and the coolant ph levels increased the gaskets will be eaten away, they don’t have a choice. The single most important thing you can do with your Subaru is change the oil and change the coolant the way YOUR driving style dictates, how you use the car is what matters not some hard to understand fiction put into a maintenance booklet so the ownership costs look lower than they actually are.
Other aspects of maintenance that are important are the types of components used such as the thermostat. Pictured below is a O.E. Subaru thermostat VS an aftermarket thermostat made by a chinese parts company and sold to you at every local parts store under the claim “meets or exceeds” .
Subaru Thermostat VS Aftermarket
This is just one example of many but the one I point to most often since a picture is worth a thousand words, and just about anyone looking at the 2 different parts here would understand one is inferior. We have seen on many occasions the thermostat on the right cause damage to head gaskets. Make sure if you or a general repair shop is replacing the thermostat that a Subaru thermostat and only a Subaru thermostat is installed.
The next thing I want to bring up is the fuel octane requirements here in the U.S., which has nothing to do with Subaru, but Subaru must make vehicles that will run on lower fuel ratings here in the U.S. then anywhere else in the world. Octane is about controlling knock from explosions, many think that explosions are desired and I find my self using that term as a good way of explaining why gaskets fail internally, but we are really after a “prolonged burn” and no explosion. The higher the octane number the better chance you wont have an explosion in the combustion chamber. The less explosions the better the chance the head gaskets will survive what happens in the combustion chamber. Subaru has built engines that require premium and some have been hard to sell for that reason. In our country you will find it hard to sell a 4 cylinder vehicle with the fuel economy drag of AWD and then require more expensive fuel unless it has the fun factor of a Turbo and thats a different demographic than just a 4 cylinder Outback driver. Which is one of the reasons most of the head gasket issues are about the U.S. cars NA (naturally aspirated), not the European and JDM( Japanese Domestic Market) models. If you want to try avoid the whole head gasket thing consider using premium fuel. Next if you ignore a check engine light with a P0325, 0r P0328 set pertaining to a knock sensor or circuit you are also potentially inviting future head gasket failure as there is no longer any precision happening, instead the computer may be running on fixed programed values rather than real time changes based on live data from the knock sensor.
2005 and newer models?
I answer this question a lot. Didn’t Subaru fix that head gasket issue?
The answer is yes and no! The gasket used in the 2003 and newer models is more resistant to corrosion. Subaru has insisted on the use of Genuine Subaru coolant and the use of the cooling system conditioner and has increased the number of ground straps on the later model cars, all of these factors have resulted in a huge decline in potential and actual failure of the head gasket resulting in an external coolant leak. We rarely see elevated PH levels on the late model Subaru’s cooling systems when serviced regularly now. Whether this was an intent of the increased number of ground straps or not it has been a positive result.
Subaru Coolant and Conditioner
Ground Straps?
This next thing is always a challenge to explain, and is really nothing new to cars but has been lost by so many.
The cooling system acts as a ground as you can see in this picture below. The positive probe is connected to the positive terminal, the negative terminal inserted into the radiator. What I am showing you here is that the flow of electrons is also through the cooling system. The test for Voltage and PH levels in the cooling system is different than this one. If you have ever owned a hot-tub or a swimming pool you know the importance of maintaining proper chemistry in the water, the same is true of your cooling system. Over time the flow of electrons in the cooling system affects the chemistry in the cooling system and must be addressed as this occurs.
Voltage in the cooling system
Subaru Ground Strap
Subaru Ground Strap
The increased number of ground straps is one contributing factor to how Subaru was able to decrease the likely hood of failure of one spot of the head gasket due to corrosion in the cooling system attacking one location adjacent to the main ground cable, which is why the left side cylinder head gasket is typically the one that leaks coolant externally in the early phase 2 2.5l. By improving the entire primary circuit in the car all of the systems function better as a result.
Why is this important?
In the picture below is an extreme case of corrosion, but one we see all to often, its not what you can see here that causes concern its what you cant see until you cut into the battery cable and see how far up the cable this is, or test for the presence of voltage in the cooling system as well as elevated Ph levels. This increases the “on time” of the alternator which is ultimately the cause of the contamination in the cooling system. Just like copper will patina over time in the elements, it takes time for corrosion to form, and time for the corrosion to do its damage. Not letting the below happen will help ensure you are not stranded for a primary circuit related failure, such as a dead battery or corroded in half battery cable, but it will also prolong the overall longevity of all other related system in the car. Baking soda and water was something EVERYONE used to do to their battery and terminals, now not so much and this is something that anyone can do.
Corroded Battery Cables
We really don’t see the same type of external coolant leaks from the phase two 2.5l anymore as a result of a combination of factors as I have tried to explain above. However we still see oil leaks, and the oil leaks can eventually lead to coolant leaks but generally at much higher mileage.
One of the common trends in the 2005 and newer models are warped heads, the majority of the head gasket repairs we make on the 2005 and newer models require that the cylinder heads in fact be resurfaced. This is due to a couple of different factors, first and foremost Toyota worked with Subaru to increase the economy of the engine and in doing so the combustion chamber area of the cylinder head was enlarged resulting in less surface material making the cylinder head more prone to warping. The second is that the primary catalytic converter was moved closer to the engine to increase efficiency, but this also brought the intense heat and weight of the Catalytic convertor closer to the cylinder heads allowing for the greater possibility of warp from heat and the weight of the exhaust system so close to the Cylinder heads. I do want to stress that many of the repairs on the 2005 and later models is due to external oil leaks with a small percentage of those repairs also leaking coolant, and a smaller number with internal failures as well.
Please note in the pictures below that the the Catalytic convertor now sits just below the cylinder heads
2005 & Newer Subaru Catalytic Convertor Location
2005 & Newer Subaru Catalytic Convertor Location
Please note the difference in the combustion chamber area of the cylinder heads side by side in the picture below. 2005 and newer Subaru 2.5l NA have a larger combustion chamber which results in less cylinder head surface area.
Subaru Cylinder Head Comparison
You can clearly see the difference in the two different era of cylinder heads; the one on the right for your reference is from a 2006 Outback, and the one on the left from a 2001 Outback, both with a 2.5l NA SOHC or phase 2 2.5l. It was fairly uncommon to need to resurface the heads prior to this change unless it over heated, leaked coolant excessively or the head surface couldn’t be cleaned by block sanding alone. I am not sure how many independent Shops are actually aware of the current trend and I want to stress that “a repair” is not necessarily better than “no repair”. I really don’t want to damage any relationship you may have formed with the current service provider if you need to have this repair made, but I also want to stress that I don’t believe it’s possible to deliver the same value and service we do on Subaru vehicles on all makes and models, and do not understand why or how any one else can claim to. If you own a Subaru and need this repair which is probably why you are reading this I would suggest looking for an Independent Subaru shop.
The Head gasket we have had success with has been recently updated to help address the current trends and help make up for the loss in surface area. I want to stress that the best gasket in the world will only be as good as the repair method it self, and if not done correctly will not last.
Six Star Head Gaskets
In the video below I am demonstrating one very important reason to never let the Subaru Dealer or general repair shop make this repair on your Subaru unless you don’t have any other option.
At the Subaru dealer the Technicians are on a “Flat rate” pay plan, I will post a link here about how that process works (check back in the near future), but a quick explanation is the quicker you work the more money you make, but that’s only one aspect as a Subaru repaired under warranty when Subaru of America is footing the bill pays the Technician 40 to 50% of what they would make if you were the one paying the bill. So if you’re a Tech working at a Subaru dealer and you had to make a head gasket repair under warranty is there any incentive to do a quality repair? Any repair will last a year and that’s all it has to, but the difference between a quality head gasket repair and the quickest one possible could be the difference between one that lasts a year or two and one that never fails again. So you’re the same technician and have now done 30 head gasket repairs under warranty and a “customer pay” repair finally comes in, do you slow it down, take the engine out and block sand it or do you make the repairs the same quick way you do for Subaru?
I point all of this out as the trend has changed a bit, we make less head gasket repairs now to the Subaru 2.5l, but each repair now demands greater attention to detail and almost every 2005 and newer is a customer pay situation as seldom do the head gaskets fail under warranty now.
I know Subaru and every other car maker likes to paint the picture that the Technicians at the Dealer are somehow better than the good independents, but that message is really just about marketing and is misunderstood by so many car owners.
Things that must be done to guarantee a long lasting repair are taking the engine out of the vehicle to make the repairs, there is no bending to this rule, it’s the single most important factor in the repair. Subaru didn’t bolt the engine block into the car and then bolt the heads up to it, that would be silly, and it’s twice as silly to expect a good, clean, precise and long lasting repair if it’s done in the car. The question is not can I, the question is should I?
Next the surfaces for both the Cylinder heads and engine block must be clean, smooth and free of any residue such as brake cleaner. But most importantly need to be at a refinishing average of RA 50 or better.
FAQ.
Q: Does the engine need to come out.
A : Yes
Q: Only one side is leaking should I do them both?
A: Yes, do both the other will be the weak link if left alone.
Q: Do I need to resurface the heads
A: If they are warped, you are unable to check for warp or unable to refinish properly your self, YES
Q: Do I need to replace the Head Bolts?
A: If you are unable to check the bolts for stretch then yes, if you have a 2005 and newer, YES
Q: Which Head Gaskets Should I use?
A: If a good Independent Subaru Shop is located around you, most likely the Six Star gasket will be your best bet, however if not the only other option is the OE Subaru Gasket, anything else will just not last. I will add that it is always best to use which ever gasket the shop making the repairs has a good comfort level with.
Q: Is Subaru paying for this?
A: The WWP-99 campaign has ended, there are some cases where Subaru will participate after the 5 year 60,000 mile powertrain warranty has expired but its on a case by case basis. But understand any repair made at a Dealer will be done by someone in a hurry using the same gasket you already tried.
Q: How much does a Head Gasket Repair Cost if I have to foot the bill?
A: This is a very tricky thing to answer. Labor can differ greatly across the nation just like home prices. I have observed invoices from shops in Montana for $1000.00 and ones form New York for $3000.00. You are much better off finding a good Subaru shop that charges a fair price and does a good job and obtaining a price from them.
Q: What can I do to prevent the head gasket problem form ever happening?
A: Maintain your Subaru based on how you use it! Cars that make frequent short trips will end up with a gasket failure much sooner than a commuter car with high miles. This is almost always because of the lack of understanding of the definition of severe use and how short drives are your car’s worst enemy. Don’t ignore check engine lights, stay on top of the cooling system service intervals, maintain proper oil change intervals (again based on how you use the car). Never use any special oil or cooling system “fix in a bottle”, the symptom may be temporarily resolved but at a much higher price later. We have seen the wrong type of stop leak lead to replacement of everything in the cooling system such as the heater core, hoses and radiator on top of replacing the head gaskets, resulting in a very large repair bill. Oil treatments that soften oil seals can accelerate the deterioration of the head gaskets very quickly.
The truth is that while you may do everything right and still end up with an issue, the life of the head gasket will be prolonged if you take the time to understand you own a piece of machinery that must be maintained based on real world use. I say this all the time; we have several customers that have still never made a head gasket repair to their 2000 and later Subaru with 200k and counting, and we have some customers that found us for the first time at 61,000 miles after being informed they had a head gasket leak. The main variables are the driver and the use. Proper maintenance costs more, and that’s just not popular, as a result the market place just doesn’t allow for it.
Here are a few more pictures of some of the important points to a head gasket repair.
Taking the engine out allows for better control when torquing the head bolts.
Torquing Head Bolts
Adjusting the valves while its all apart contributes to a complete repair and will help maintain economy and power.
Adjusting Valves on a Subaru
The head gasket repair will only be as good as the prep work, the left side of the cylinder head below is what many shops and dealer feel to be ok, when in reality the surface on the right side will yield much better results.
Subaru Cylinder Head Surface Prep
The Cylinder heads and engine block surfaces must be checked for warp and corrected as needed.
Checking Subaru Heads For Warp
Thanks for taking the time to read about the current trends with the Subaru Head Gasket situation.
If you have questions please post them here. I will as always do what I can to help.
Justin Stobb
Helping You get more out of your Subaru!
[...] You may want to read this article about head gaskets before you decide to add aftermarket coolant. Subaru Repair Seattle, Subaru Service Seattle – Seattle Subaru Repair [...]
So why would anyone buy a Subaru?
Same reason they would buy anything else, they wanted it. It fits their needs, they want the safety of AWD and the 5 star crash rating and the Overall reliability of a Subaru. They dont want to buy the car twice by owning a Volvo or Audi AWD vehicle.
If you think Subaru is the only car company to need repairs, please think again. I can point you to plenty of posts on any other brand specific Forum to complaints about that model.
Justin
I just wanted to help on this blog. I called today and the local Gainesville, Fl Subaru dealer does not stock the “Coolant Conditioner” anymore. They stopped that this year. Just a little FYI to help. I wont speak to what that means because I am not nearly as educated on Subarus as Justin. I give him huge props for his efforts and truly appreciate what he has done with writing this article. My partner has a 2006 Sub.For. and I love it. It hasnt started to leak yet but Im sure its inevitable. I am a pilot so I am used to a higher degree of maintenance on my engines. Coincidently, the only other horizontally oriented engines I’ve seen are in aircraft. Maybe I am biased. Either way, I like the comprises to the vehicle and I dont mind the more frequent maintenance as a disadvantage to the advantages. Thank you Justin…..
The Conditioner thing is going to be Dealer by Dealer much like the Stocking of Green Coolant is.
The Fixed Operations Manager will decide at any given Dealership how they want to address service and thus stoked parts. Sometimes they will drop part numbers from inventory just to simplify things.
Local to us the conditioner is till stocked at the Subaru Dealerships.
Thanks for posting
Justin
Good question. I bought my Subaru to replace my Audi A4 that had 70K miles on it when the cam shaft broke causing catastrophic engine failure (cause: CAM-follower problem). That was a $10K engine replacement bill. Also was tired of paying $400 for frequent Xenon headlight replacements (requires removing the front bumper…not exactly a friendly DIY project).
This sure is an excellent in-depth article Justin!
Thanks or taking the time to post it, and all the others which you’ve done.
John
Justin,
Thank you for all of this very detailed information! My wife and I have been considering buying a 2012 outback but the HG problem was still a concern for us since we could not seem to find definitive information on a fix. If I had found your article a month or two ago I probably would have gone ahead and purchased the 2012 but now that the 2013′s are due to arrive in a month or two we are considering waiting. Supposedly in the 2013 engines, the coolant lines for the head and block are completely separate now and the coolant will no longer flow through the gasket at all. In your opinion will the new FB blocks finally put this issue to rest? Is it worth waiting for the 2013 OB or is the 2012 good enough if one takes good care?
Thanks – R
Hi Justin, what kind of sandpaper and grit number did you use to prep the heads?
Thanks, Gustavo
220 wet and dry, 400 and 600 wet
I’m in the same position as Robert. Would appreciate a comment on the prospect for a fix on the 2013 models. His comment is intriguing: ” Supposedly in the 2013 engines, the coolant lines for the head and block are completely separate now and the coolant will no longer flow through the gasket at all.”
Hi Mark,
There is not much of a comment I can make as I am not aware of the change, I also do not see how it is possible so will have to wait on that one.
I can promise that not all 2013 models would have a new design if there is one slated, the 2013s will be out next month so I guess we will see than.
Justin
How many head gasket failures have you guys seen on the H6, specifically the EZ30D (mine is a 2004)? Just curious.
Part of the reason I bought an H6 over the H4 is because of the head gasket issue, since I was looking at used ones around the mileage where they would probably start to go. Plus, I love the extra power of the H6.
I’m at about 125k on my 2004 and going strong so far with regular coolant and oil changes.
We do a few. Almost always over 150k and generally not regularly serviced by us.
Justin
Hello Justin!!
Thank you so much for all of this information.
I just bought my first car from a dealer in PA (I live in Maryland) . It is a used 2000 Subaru Forester 2.5L SOHC with 100 630 miles. Stick drive.
I have a 3 month warranty and just got my Maryland Inspection and I failed it. Apparently my head gasket is leaking on the left side but I want to get to New Orleans by June 20th. Is this something pivotal?? I mean I do not know if it is super severe, do warranties generally cover the repair??
Also my rear differential is bad (I was totally unaware of this when I got my car two weeks ago), it felt totally fine and I love how my car drives? Do you think that is classic mechanics trick to get money out of people or is it a genuine problem?
I totally trust your input!!
Thank you,
Dino.
Hi Dino,
Thats kind of tough fore me to say without seeing the car, I do not believe that most shops are out to try and make unnecessary repairs, but obviously I don’t know the shop in question.
The rear differential is not a common failure but can go if not maintained properly and since the car is new to you its possible. My question is, is it noisy?
If the HG is leaking coolant you should not drive it on a long trip, if its just oil you should be ok.
Hope that helps
Justin
Hey Justin,
Just purchased a 2004 Baja with the 2.5 TURBO 5-speed. Are the 2.5 TURBO engines as prone to head gasket failure like the N/A 2.5?
Anything else i should keep an eye on for the Baja?
Thanks for your time.
Hello Daniel,
Congrats on the purchase, that’s a good power-train set up and hard to find as well.
No the Turbo engines use a MLS gasket that holds up pretty well, while we do see a few failures here and there its typically over 150k, and typically because something else happened that caused the gaskets to fail.
The thing to watch for is turbo failure due to oil starvation. Read this here. http://allwheeldriveauto.com/how-to-make-your-subaru-turbo-last/
Justin
hi justin
I have been looking a some of your videos and have found them quite informative. I have a question. Do you have an opinion about putting copper sealant on subaru head gaskets. Would It help or hurt? I am would on 1997 subaru outback 2.5
thanks for your response.
The idea behind the copper spray is to help make up for any low spots that cannot be machined out of the engine block, unless this condition exist its not necessary to use the copper spray.
Justin
Hi Justin, I just found your website on the Suabaru Outback Forum and it has been very informative. I have 2 subarus, a 1991 legacy and a 1998 outback. I have had headgasket issues with both, having done both engines twice. I am a very meticulus do it yourselfer with 35 years experiance in all things automotive. These have baffled me as I have done all things recomended by you and still had problems recur after 5000-10000 miles. In the second repair of the outback out of despairation and not wanting to be beat by this problem I tried using ARP headstuds and Cometic Phuzion gaskets, as the all subaru parts didn’t last the first time. I had the block and head surfaced the 1st time and just heads the second. Subaru thermostats in both cars and much attention paid to bleeding air out of the system. I wonder if the heads could be soft from being overheated or thin from being surfaced,even though the shop doing the machine work is extremely high quality as am I. The outback I bought used with the gaskets blown so no idea how hot it got that first time, but both times after we didn’t overheat much as we realized what was starting to happen. I like the cars especially the 1998 and would love to have a lasting fix, I am about to give up on them, but hate to be beaten by this problem as I think there has to be a workable solution. Also wondered if these could have intermitent fan problems as the first sign of a problem always occured in stop and go city driving, but by the time we could pull over and check things the fans were working. I have thought of putting some type of light on it so I can tell when the fans turn on from in the car. I also suspect a air bubble maybe delaying the fan activation. I have also found that the original temp gage in the car is not very responsive as 180 is about in the mid range and 200+ is about 5/8 up which I checked with my scan tool and verified with a temp gun. When it is at the top of the gauge I would guess it is at some absurd temp. Any thoughts or advise on how I might proceed to salvage this/ these cars and save my sanity would be greatly appretiated. Thanks in advance, Scott
Hey Justin
What do you think about this block check kit. Have you ever seen them or used them.
Hi Gary,
In my experience the block check works about as well as your nose.
Justin
Great article! It is always nice to get more details than I can get out of the mechanic when they hand over an estimate of $1,800-$3,600 repair and just say, ‘yes, it is something you have to address.’ My 2005 Forester has 120,000 miles on it and I am trying to determine if they go ahead and yank the engine out to work on the HG should I consider any other repair and/or part replacements for things which may be worn down or likely to cause me problems down the road.
Hi Carrie,
Its best to address the timing components during the HG repairs.
Justin
[...] it down as the 'cover needing to be screwed down". I am not so sure about that. I read that head gaskets leaking oil are not uncommon in Subaru's and to prevent or reduce the incidence of this issue the engine needs to be very [...]
Justin,
Excellent article. Exactly the information I was looking for.
So I recently purchased a 2006 Subaru Impreza 2.5i and just had a mechanic give it a thorough inspection today. Everything checked out for the most part. There were no coolants leaks and no oil in the coolant that they had flushed. However, there’s a very small oil leak (they described it as more of a seep) at the driver side cylinder head. They didn’t seem overly concerned with it, but they told me to watch the oil level and if I started to notice dripping oil under my vehicle where it had been parked, then I should bring it in and get the cylinders resurfaced and new head gaskets installed.
My question is this, can I expect to make it another 10,000 miles with this small leak (hopefully 8-9 more months) or in your experience will this be something that will need attention before the end of this year?
Boden,
With out seeing the leak, I cant comment on its severity or its pending need to be addressed.
Typically a small leak of oil can be monitored for a while, just have who ever is changing the oil keep an eye on it , and this cannot be a quick lube.
Justin
Wow. I must admit, I’m amazed.
I’m thinking of buying a used Forester and I’ve narrowed it down to three.
1. A 2000 with 114k. It recently had the timing belt and water pump, front brakes and rotors, starter motor, CV axle, and O2 sensor and alternator replaced.
2. A 2002 with 132k. It recently the timing belt, vent valve, driver belts, water pump, and head gasket replaced.
3. A 2003 with 118k. I haven’t talked the person yet so I do not any further info on it yet.
They’re all MTs if that matters.
Finally, do you have a clone in the Boston, MA area? If I buy one, I really would like to have a shop like yours around. I’ve only heard horror stories about the local dealers around here.
Thanks in advance.
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
If the repairs were made well on option number 2 that’s the way I would steer. The 2003 has a few more options (as it was a refresh) over the 2000 and 2002, but im not sure if those will matter that much.
I dont know anyone in Boston I am afraid.
Thanks
Justin
Justin,
Great article, very informative. I have a 2001 Subaru Legacy 2.5l with 153,000 miles. I’d like to keep it going a while longer, but am keeping an eye out for signs that the head gaskets have developed leaks. I wish your shop was in San Francisco! Is there anyone in the Bay Area who you can recommend who knows their stuff when it comes to these older Subarus?
Thanks,
Kathryn
Ill make a call and if I find one , I will send you an email.
Thanks
Justin
I’m looking for someone as well to help fix my blown head gasket in the Phoenix (85021) area.
I have a 2001 Subaru Legacy 2.5l with 277,000 miles on it.
… also, I do not want to get rid of my Subaru. Should I actually fix it or just stop and let it go to the junk yard?
Jodi
Hi Jodi,
I don’t know anyone in Phoenix I am afraid.
At 277k, I worry a little about oil use in between oil changes. IF you want to keep the car I would consider a Subaru Reman Short block along with the Head Gasket repairs.
Justin
[...] Originally Posted by Thai x2. Link: Subaru Owner Tips: Subaru Changed the Head Gasket for the 2010 Outback – YouTube Head gasket issue was resolved DEFINITIVELY in 2010. Your finance guy is an idiot and/or a poor salesman. the guy who made the video also has a blog from his sube shop in Seattle. Here is a lengthy article about the head gasket issue. Lots of detail. Subaru Repair Seattle, Subaru Service Seattle – Seattle Subaru Repair [...]
Justin,
thanks for all the info on this site. Do you have time for another?
I’ve got a 1996 with a 2.2l manual, original owner with 260K on it (yes, we’re happy). I do most work myself, and have done the last two timing belts on it, recent one at 240K. Engine light has been on for years after trying to figure it out myself and spending a few hundred dollars with a local shop with no success. I do all the maintenance, but have recently gone to 7K oil changes, maybe a mistake.
Last week, on a 2 hour drive to airport, I tried the AC and didn’t have any cooling. (I replaced the compressor and most other A/C components about a year ago). I turned the switch off and didn’t think much more about it. Another 20 minutes and the car died at an intersection. I noticed the temperature gage pegged, and pushed it into a parking lot. Opened the hood, steam was coming out of the lower passenger side of the radiator. I let it cool, drove to a friends house in several steps, and replaced the radiatior, which did have a leak. Also replaced the hoses, radiator cap, and thermostat. Refilled with 50/50, still overheats after a few miles of driving (and no hot air from heater). Drained the system, checked thermostat (it was open when i removed it hot) and refilled. Same problem with another drive. Trailered the car home this morning.
Questions:
Should i assume head gasket breach? Or could it still be that I’ve got a bubble in the system. can you help with a fill procedure to eliminate bubbles? My Chilton doesn’t have much, just “drain and refill”.
If it is head gaskets, i assume you’ve got a kit I can use. Can you tell me how many hours of shop time you would have for this engine to replace both HG’s? (I usually double the estimated shop time for how long it takes me.)
Can you think of any reason why the AC would have stopped working as a result of a coolant issue? If i’ve scrapped another compressor, i may think twice about doing repairs on this old car. (It got beat pretty well in a hailstorm 2 years ago, and is starting to rust on the roof.)
I know this is a huge long post, thanks in advance for your help.
Hi Mike,
When the engine temp gets hot, the Ac cannot perform properly as the heat up than cool cycle of the Ac cant happen. Ac is not making something cold but rather drastically reducing temperature and pressure and the result is cool air.
You may have a HG issue, or yes you could still have an air pocket. Does the overflow bottle smell like Exhaust? Did you use a cooling system fill funnel to purge the air out.
You can request parts info here. http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-parts/
Justin
justin,
thanks for the reply. Makes sense on the AC, that indicates the engine was probably running hot for about 20 minutes. There was still steam coming out of the radiator leak when I pulled over.
The overflow bottle does not smell like exhaust. I had drained the new coolant to check the thermostat, and refilled with distilled water tonight by pouring through the top hose directly into the block, and then filling the radiator. Drove about 4 miles with temp staying at mid range, then it rose to almost max in minute or two. Possible clue, when the temperature spikes like that, the heater stops blowing hot air and begins blowing cold air. Another possible clue, I had not put any water in the overflow, and after lifting the hood when it got hot, the overflow was about half full. also heard gurgling from what seemed to be the top hose area.
I did not use a cooling system fill funnel to purge air; don’t know what one of these is, can I get one at AutoZone or Napa (our only local places)?
A local shop told me they have an analyzer that could test the radiator coolant (I assume for UBC’s). Would you recommend that?
I’ve done the timing belt, fuel pump, radiator, front axles, rear struts, brakes and quite a bit of other repair work on this car. Is a head gasket job significantly more difficult than these?
thanks again.
Hi Mike,
All of it sounds like, a HG issue to me, not sue why you are not getting the exhaust smell. The next step is to patiently use the Gas analyzer and look for signs of Hydro carbons in the Cooling system.
The HG is a bigger repair than the Timing belt, how ever if you buy the parts from us we do offer a repair guide and tech support.
Justin
Justin,
I just wanted to say thanks very much for the article, it was very well done.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the kind words!
Justin
Hi Justin,
Thank you for this in-depth explanation about the different types of head gasket leaks. I have a 2005 Legacy 2.5I and I had to have the head gaskets replaced in 2009, with about 49k, thankfully they were covered under an extended warranty I purchased (got it done at the Subaru dealer). I thought that seemed a little odd that they had to be replaced with such low mileage, but didn’t think much of it for awhile. Well, back in October 2011 I took it in to another Subaru dealer with 102k and they said that they were leaking again and needed to be replaced. I didn’t get them done as I thought that it was something that should not happen twice in such a short time frame and I didn’t have the $2500 they were asking for the repair. This was confirmed today by another repair shop. The car now has about 114k and we are unsure what to do. It is a very costly repair and I am wondering if it was done right the first time or carelessly by a technician (since it was done under warranty). Any advice you have would be appreciated! Thank you!
Lindsey,
The repair was made with the same HG gasket that was already installed from the Factory.
The fact that the repair yielded longer life that the original install tells me a “good Tech” most likely worked on your car or the mileage could have been much less which is unfortunately what we see all to often.
What to do from here, that is really up to you and if the car still suits your needs.
Justin
Thank you for the great information.
I am one of the unfortunate Subaru Outback 2003 owners with the head gasket issue. The estimates I have to fix it are $2.5K – $4K; it has both a coolant & oil leak. I’ve done all the services & recommended maintenance but did not use premium gas. The ac is not working either for another $1.1K (seems high for ac)
Anyway, not sure I’m going to fix it as it has 125K miles on it. For the money, I can put a down payment on a newer car. I really like how the Subaru handles but afraid to buy another. Of course, all cars have issues so will keep researching.
Thanks again.
Cindy
Hi Justin,
Just wanted to join the chorus of voices thanking you for your website and this article in particular.
I’m in nearly the same situation as Kathryn above, except I live in San Jose instead of San Francisco. When you made that call on behalf of Kathryn to locate a good Subaru mechanic for head gasket work in the Bay Area, do you come across any down here in the San Jose area? If you did — and if you had the time — I’d appreciate an email with any recommendations, too.
Thanks again,
Chris
Hi Chris,
I was unable to locate a shop in the last posters part of town.
Its tough for me to do so, I don’t go around and visit other shops, there are no real conventions to speak of.
I will typically place a call to my Subaru Parts vendor, but have to point out that there is no guarantee that the shop will be any good.
Its always best to ask Subaru owners in your part of town who they trust?
Justin
Hi Justin,
Thank you for the write up. I have a subaru 2002 legacy wagon (122000 miles now, drove the car for 15000 miles). I recently replaced the transmission fluid and the dealer told me that i have oil leak wher one side is leaking more than other and suggested a head gasket replacement. I changed oil every 3000 miles for the time I have the car and never had any issues with coolant loss or overheating. The mechanic doing my oil changes never spotted this problem either. Should I wait for either of these conditions to appear before I do the head gasket repair? Will putting the coolant conditioner help now?
Regards,
Ray
Hi Ray,
No a head gasket leaking oil will not cause an overheat, nor will an additive to the cooling system help with the oil leak. You can possibly delay the inevitable with the conditioner, but there’s really now saying for how long if at all.
What will happen is it will become worse and eventually leak coolant, as well as an internal leak resulting in an overheat, the idea is to catch it ahead of that event to keep costs down.
Justin
Justin, as a follow up to my question the other day on an overheated 2006 Subaru Forester, I got the numbers from the mechanic…
P0102 MAF code
P0113 AIT temp
P0197 oil temp
Compression Test
1 86 psi
2 45 psi
3 55 psi
4 55 psi
Engine turns freely.
Mileage is 134810
I’m hoping that the engine went into a soft shutdown when the oil temperature peaked, but the low compression tells me the gaskets are gone. I’m going to ask the mechanic to try AS HARD AS POSSIBLE to merely mill the heads and replace with high-quality gaskets. He’s still pushing for a reman. or used engine, but I don’t think the vehicle is worth the price he wants to charge for that.
Any hope here whatsoever?
Thank you for being completely awesome…
- Patrick, Fullerton, California
Hello Patrick,
Here is the problem with the tests that have been done, how a bout a leakage test showing the percent of and where the leakage is too.
If a leak down shows 50% leakage to coolant, then yes the HG are gone, but if that same test reveals 50% to crankcase the lower end needs some attention and is not a candidate for a HG repair.
The codes are all predicated around the overheating event, which sounds like it was pretty significant.
Justin
Justin, thank you for the reply…
My wife has decided that she likes the car enough to tell the mechanic to do an engine swap for an ATK remanufactured engine. She is extremely chagrined to have not caught the overheating event in time to save the engine. She’s normally the first one in the car to note mechanical problems in real time. Years of driving old cars have trained her well, but this one got by her!
I did ask the mechanic to evaluate the heads once the engine is out before proceeding with a transplant, but he can tell me whatever he likes and I’ll have to take him at his word. Based on the way the engine was soaked down just after the event, and the fact that he told me a few days later that the oil was not emulsified, I still have some hope… I’m three hours away from his shop, and my wife is still out on tour for her company, somewhere around San Francisco this week.
Thanks again for the commentary. You seem an honorable man. I wish the car was sitting in your shop, but I’ll have to take what I can get.
- Patrick
Justin, I’ve finally heard back from the mechanic who is working (albeit very, very slowly) on my wife’s Forester. There is finally other news to report. The heads have been sent off to a machine shop, where they were milled “fifteen thousandths”. He doesn’t have them back yet, and was not certain if he could obtain a Felpro gasket set for a milled Subaru. I rapidly asked him if I could send him a link to Six Star gaskets, and he laconically said “Sure, I guess. Never heard of ‘em”
Well, he’s about to hear of them.
Did you say that the MLS Six stars were available in overmilled gauges?
Thank you again for any information you can provide!
- Patrick
.015 is a lot, the heads need to be measured. The brand you mentioned will let you down, not a good choice for your car, just fine for a Chevy or a Ford, but nothing Japanese.
Justin
Justin
Thank you so much for the articles. I have looked all over the internet, and finally found your articles on this HG problem. My 04 outback is in the shop having the head gasket replaced. I have been told the wrong coolant was put in my car when the water pump was replaced by an independent shop.
My question to you is would that independent shop be responsible for any of the cost to replace the HG? Why is there no caution info on the coolant cap? Should the shop know this? If this is such a HUGE problem why are the customers not notified? I am unsure if I should ask the independent for help with my repair. If this is a Subaru problem, which it seems like it is.
My check engine light is on also.Is this related to the HG.
Thank you for any information you can offer.
Vicki
Hi Vicki,
The check engine light is on, and there will be a code set that can be read with a code scanner, without knowing the code number I cant answer the “is the check engine light related to the head gasket question” it could just as easily be a lose gas cap.
The “wrong coolant” issue is kind of a cop out, the information about what kind of coolant to use is in the owners manual.
As far as responsibility, Subaru is trying to portray this image to you;
“you silly customer should never take your car anywhere but the Subaru Dealer for Service, and if you had just spent all your money with us paying for overpriced services, we would have put the right coolant in it”
Which is absurd, many Subaru Dealers still use bulk type coolant ( I have witnessed it), and even if you had taken it to a Dealer, and they had put in Subaru coolant, its dishonest to try and say you wouldn’t have had a HG issue, there’s no way to take the path not chosen at the time to see where it would have lead you. All I know is that most 2.5l will end up needing the repairs, look at all the posts on the 1st HG article I wrote from all of the people who took it to the Dealer and no where else and still had to have the repair made.
Should the Shop who did the Water pump have used O.E. Coolant & the stop leak, I mean conditioner, may be. I wont say absolutely either way, as it only comes down to the following; do you want Subaru to kick in $500.00 to have a Dealer hack at a Dealer service department make the repairs, or do you want to establish a good relation ship with a good shop for your Subaru and let them guide you through the repairs and service as needed.
The Dealer is trying to paint themselves better than they are in your eyes,its a common tactic, don’t fall for it. I despise the tactic, as I believe in honestly with our customers, not sales tactics especially those that unfairly damage another shops reputation. If given the chance the local Subaru Dealer will state lies to gain a job, nit a customer just a job.
If you have ever seen “Super Size Me”, Id like to draw from a part in that movie. Morgan Spurlock went to several McDonald’s franchises asking for Nutrition information, at each franchise the results were different, some had them posted, some didn’t even have them available. A Subaru Dealership is a franchise they operate, well really how ever they want to, occasionally they may be Audited and make small changes but never to the intentional belittlement of customers & Independent shops alike.
You could pack up, go to a different Subaru Dealership and they might be mums on the coolant in it.
I would at leas call the independent shop, hopefully they are familiar with Subaru? If not no matter what you do from here, I would suggest finding a good place, and one place to take care of your Subaru.
Hope that helps and best of luck.
Justin
Justin,
Thank you. I contacted Subaru of America. I think they may help me. They know they have a problem.
Next question. After the head gasket is fixed, will it happen again in the next 100k miles? Have they done something to the gasket that will make it last longer?
You know I really don’t care about the problem, it’s the fact that they tried to put it on someone else and me, and not take responsibility. Makes me sick.
Have the new subaru’s been upgraded? It sounds like it from all of the information I read.
I like my car a lot.
So, if you were to get a new Subaru, what would you get?
Thanks for all of the information, BTW, my code was 420.
The engine in the present Outback uses a MLS Gasket, no known issues as of yet.
Justin
JUSTIN,
Just to follow up. SOA and the dealer blame my problem on the coolant and an after market water pump. They will not help with anything. They did give me a car while they fix it. The CEL is a catalytic converter problem this is covered under warrant. How long will the new Head Gasket last? I don’t have very much confidence in the car now.
Ahhh.
Justin:
This article is an impressive piece of work and has addressed all my questions and concerns. I have 2000 Outback and 2003 Legacy that have both had the head gaskets repaired at the dealer. I wish I new then what I know now. I appreciate the maintenance advice and will follow it. I really like driving Subaru cars but I am not happy that they don’t stand behind their motors better. As much as I would like another Subaru I am still not sure that it’s a good idea to buy another.
Thanks
What a great site and forum! I’ve been reading your comments for the last hour.
We have a 93 Impreza hatchback. It has 107,000 miles on it and has been a great car. It still is a great car but… About 10 or 15 thousand miles ago it started leaking oil and dripping it onto the exhaust manifold. I can’t see well enough to determine where the leak is originating. Except that it’s on the right side of the engine. I quit looking when a local mechanic told us (over the phone) that it was certainly a head gasket; $1,800 to fix.
So I guess my first question is: since 1993 was evidently not a head gasket problem year, could the oil be leaking from another source? For awhile it seemed to smell of oil smoke the most when it was on a steep uphill grade.
The bigger question, however, is what you would recommend as a replacement car. This one runs like a champ but the body is dinged, banged and rusty in those compromised areas. Another car just like this one but in better overall condition would be one of our top preferences, so we’re looking at used Impreza hatchbacks. We live in Juneau, which is like Seattle except somewhat colder; alternating rain and snow, freeze/thaw all winter. We average 5,000 to 8,000 miles a year. VERY short runs with the car; I’m sure it’s only seen full operating temperature the few times we drove it to the Yukon.
Do older models survive the short running times better, worse, or same?
I’d really like to know if your shop sells any used cars that you’ve been maintaining. I like the idea of the older cars since they seem more trouble free. Dual airbags would be nice though, as ours has only the driver air bag.
Thank you again for your wonderful website. Sure wish I’d known about it a few years ago!
Stewart
Stewart,
I would fix what you have it will cost less money to do so.
The 1993 Impreza is a good car if it still suits your needs, we do sell cars at http://www.awdautosales.com if you want something different any ways we dont have anything presently that fits your criteria however.. The older models will survive the short running times a bit better as they have less systems.
The oil leaks are most likely the front and rear cam shaft support o-rings and maybe the oil pump or seperator plate as well as the valve cover gaskets.
Justin
Dear Sirs, My daughter took a 1999 forester eng manual and put it into her 1997 impreza out back automatic 2.2. Car runs great but after a while gauge shows overheat. I did the carbon monoxide tesy, Shows good. Therm is new and the right way lol. Air has been purged. Both fans cut on normally. When gauge shows overheat. I gunned rad hoses and radiator and therm housing. It stays at about 156 F with digital pyrometer. It seems after a 20 minute highway drive. Gauge stays normal the whole time then shoots up to pegged position. My daughter says a small amount of coolant pushed out xpansion tank. Theres no oil in water and no water in the oil.It is an after market therm but looks just like oem. What do you think Oh Subaru Messiah? Im dying a slow death!
HI Daryl
So She took out a 2.2l and put a SOHC 2.5l in its place, what was known about the Forester engine? Curious as to how the the tests have been performed, as I find that 90% of the time when someone tells me it has been tested for HC’s in the cooling system the tets were done incorrectly or incompletely. If it was done any other way than the exact way it over heats then what have you actually tested? If the Subaru is fine for 20 minutes and then overheats at highway speeds thats precisely how you need to test it.
Are the fans coming on? Is the Radiator restricted?
When Subaru Head Gaskets fail internally, they DO NOT mix oil and coolant, you may get some oil residue in the overflow bottle but this is oil from the combustion chamber NOT the crankcase.
The answer to why the Subaru overheats can be found, I am not sure why its eluding you only to say you need to continue to evaluate the car the proper way until the problem is found.
Justin
Also what rad cap is good I have a 0.9. Is that good?I think its the original Forester cap?
I bought an 06 Outback with 151,000 miles from a big Subaru dealer who knocked another $500 off instead of checking out a small oil leak which I could smell burning oil on the right side exhaust. Could not see any oil leaking, and checking the oil level after 1000 miles shows only tiny decrease in oil. After reading your article I checked and found coolant level at “min” and evidence of white stains on the inside of the hood and on the top of the battery. Peaking under the shiny red positive battery cable I find the battery post packed with corrosion, and the car cranks slowly as is the battery is low. There is no obvious leakage under the car or elsewhere – just the burning oil smell when he car is turned off. I bought the car under time pressure after another car failed and we needed a car quickly. Dealer had done all oil changes and other service on this car and gave me the records, which is why I held my nose on the mileage, not knowing my risk with high-mile HG’s. It looks like I need HG’s due to the external oil, but does the battery corrosion and coolant use suggest more? I paid about $2000 less than book for this car, so it may be worth it, but any guidance would be appreciated.
Hi Steve,
Battery corrosion and a weak battery only affect the cooling system if there is significant voltage or an increase in the PH levels.
Justin
Hey
Im just wondering do the 2L dohc subaru impreza still have the head gasket problem ? Or is it only with the 2.5 engines
Ivan,
If you are referring to the 2013 Impreza, it will be years before we know how well that engine will perform, anyone telling you other wise is not stating facts.
Justin
Justin
Great article. I just had my 2006 legacy in for a 90,000mi service,at a dealership and they informed me about the oil leak on the drivers side HG (damn)but a week later I noticed a leak at the rear differential, which I have never noticed before. I brought it in and they could not find a problem, nut told me the mechanic says it has been leaking awhile and that I should get the newer model diff. cover and gasket???
What are your thoughts about the diff?
The Diff could be over filled allowing fluid to come out of the Vent?
Or there could be a leak that needs to be addressed?
Justin
Justin,
Thanks for the information. I have a 2001 forester with 160,000 on it. I recently had it in the mechanics and they said the head gasket is blown, but not horrible. They recommened not worrying about it for the time being. I have been keeping a close eye on it and it appears I have a slight external oil and coolant leak. Slight meaning an ounces of coolant per month and a 1/4 quart of oil in 3 months. In the 3 months I put 6,000 miles on the car, mostly being highway.
My question is should I be concerned with changing the head gasket right away or do I have some life left before it needs to be changed. And what are the signs that I should look for when it is time to be changed.
I am getting ready to go on a 2000 mile road trip and want to make sure it will be ok. My plan was to service to coolant system with new subaru coolant and conditioner.
What to you think? Thanks for the help!!
Joe
I don’t typically suggest using a Subaru or any car for that matter with a looming repair for a road trip of any sort, because that’s when its going to let you down. Who is going to make the proper repair if it happens in an area with out a good Subaru or import shop, the price of service at need is always going to be more expensive than the price when done ahead of failure.
SO to answer your question I would really suggest fixing it ahead of the trip, borrowing a car or renting a car.
All of this is based however on not being able to view the car my self and having a sense of how bad it really is, but when it leaks coolant its time to fix it or park it.
Justin
do I have to pull the camshafts out to remove the cylinder head on 1999 legacy outback 2.5l? ran out of light and trying to have it running by mid afternoon 2-morrow.
i see that i do have to remove the cams. any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks a bunch!
Best Advice I can give you is to Buy the Hg kit from us, and we will send you a Repair guide, there you will find the answers to your questions and more.
Justin
Hi so just wondering
my head gasket on the passenger side is leaking oil on the bottom
Should I get the head gasket replace or should I just monitor it for now,
is there any chance It will get worse and become an internal leak aswell?
Sorry I forgot to mention that I have a 2004 forester
Hi
I have a 2004 forester x with 183000 on the clock
I have discovered an oil leak from the passenger
Side head. Now should I get te head gasket replace
ASAP or Should I just keep an eye on it for now
And is there any chance that it will turn into an internal
Leak…?
You can monitor it as it goes from an oil to a coolant leak, and take care of it as it does so.
It can turn to an internal leak as well.
Justin
i am working on a 1999 legacy outback 2.5l. had cylinder head milled .003 now have a massive oil leak around top rear of gasket. any suggestions?
Most likely its not from the Hg, have you looked at the PCV breather hose At the top of the engine.
could head bolts be bottoming out? or block be warped,( which seems unlikely to me), or something else?
Hey I have a question, 2006 Subaru 2.5I, I pulled the engine and replaced the head gaskets. I did send heads to a machine shop and replaced head bolts, Timing belt, plugs, wires t/stat, Water pump and all the gaskets and parts. No its done a started it up and drove it 20 miles on a road test. Then I let it sit for an Hour and drove it home and now it’s pushing out the cam plug? Only on one side and also set a V V T code ? Any thoughts??? Never came across this before. Thank you so much
Did you but the HG kit form us?
Hi Justin,
I have a few questions. I have bought the gasket kit from the site a few month ago.I have finally decided to do it.
1- While I have the engine out can I pull the torque convertor to drain the oil since I’m changing the transmission fluid?
2- Do I need to coat the six star gasket with copper HG spray?
3-Can I use synthetic transmission fluid in the automatic?
Hello Danny,
Yes, But replace the Torque converter seal. Be sure to pack the Seal with assembly lube before installing it.
No, Six Star does not not approve the Use of any chemical spray.
Yes, but you do want to try and get as much as the old fluid out as possible.
Thanks and hope that helps
Justin
I found your site after getting the news that I have a moderate leak in the LH Head Gasket. It is not leaking coolant at teh moment. I am in Australia and I have a 2004 Forester that has done 175,000km (not sure what that is in miles). After reading your (very comprehensive) blog I have decided that perhaps I will just go ahead and get it fixed as I would like to keep the car, however, just one question – how long will this engine last? We do a lot of highway driving as we live in a regional area. I would like at least another 5 years from the car. What do you think?
Hi Bonnie,
I can never say how long your car will last, but A Subaru is capable of going 300,000 miles and more. So generally speaking you should be able to use the car for more than another 5 years.
Hope that helps
Justin
Hello there…I just had my 2005 2.0 WRX fixed, the head gasket was gone and heads needed to be shaved. in total I paid $2000 and not very happy with the results. The car has significant loss in power, and whenever I start it up, it feels like its gonna Die on me…Also when it Idles it feels like it will die at any second, I don’t know why is that. My mechanic also told me that because of my heads being shaved I will loose 10%-15% of vacuum…I don’t know what to do, i mean the car is just not what it used to be, feels like 100hp less…Is there any other way I can make it better.? I was thinking of buying an engine swap, but I Just paid this guy $2000…
Hello William,
Um no, the milling of the Heads will not cause a 10 to 15% decrease in power, and obviously from that statement it was not done at a Subaru shop.
They need to check there work, and if no problems found proceed to diagnose the actual cause of the issues you are currently happening. It may be related, it may be something new or overlooked.
Justin
How are the 2.0l turbo head gaskets? do they suffer from teh same problem ?
Not typically, and if it does happens it almost always at high miles or lack of maintenance.
Justin
Hi Justin,
I recently purchased an 03 Outback H6 and I beleive I might have a exhaust manifold leak. Out of nowhere the exhaust now sounds like a “riced out Honda”. After driving there is a white smoke coming from the engine and I traced it down to under the engine block and there is some sort of fluid either oil or coolant leaking I’m not sure. I checked the oil and that seemed fine but the coolant was low so I filled that.
You really need to find the source of the coolant leak before anything else and I would suggest not driving it much or at all until its resolved.
It would be wise to get it to a Subaru Guy near you if you are unable to trace down the coolant leak your self.
As far as the exhaust leak goes, the H6 models dont have a typical everyone leaks here kind of a thing I can point out, so that really will need to be looked at locally as well.
Justin
Justin
I am researching what vehicle I will be purchasing next and the Subaru Outback is one of the vehicles I am considering. Something that concerns me is the issue that Subaru has had with head gaskets and how long it has continued. Why wouldn’t Subaru address this immediately since it is a major expense for their customers, also a major deterrent to potential customers. On May 11 of this year,Robert asked a great question but since you hadn’t seen the 2013 Outback yet you couldn’t comment. I was hoping you could now as I’m sure alot of people would be interested in your answer. What he asked was now that the coolant lines for the head and block are completely separate and coolant will no longer flow the gasket at all, will the new FB block finally put the head gasket issue to rest. Looking forward to your answer. Thanks!
Hello Melvin,
I never commented on Roberts Question entirely as I am not sure where he had read what he had and I dont ever try to tell someone they are flat out wrong unless they are rude or mean. The Engine block still has oil and coolant flowing through the Head gaskets and into the Cylinder heads. There are some theoretical advantages to the FB series mostly due to surface are mass increase due to going back to a DOHC design.
You can read about the FB series here.
To the rest of your question what I can say is this, there are three and only three cars that are in the same class when comparing true and capable AWD vehicles those Are Audi, Subaru and Volvo. The Subaru will have a lower cost of ownership and is the lessor of three evils.
There are many car companies that offer a AWD version of their car, but Subaru stands alone as the only car company with the Boxer engine that allows for the better center of gravity and the mechanical advantages of symmetrical AWD. In a Subaru the CV axles are the same length left to right both front and rear, this gives the AWD system a distinctive advantage over everyone else’s as there is no mechanical deficiency that must be addressed somewhere else in the system. Its the Boxer Design that allows for the high head on crash rating as the engine is compact and capable of folding down below you in a impact taking some mass out of the blunt force impact. I wont go on here, you can go to Subaru’s Website as I am sure you have already and read more your self. There are many other car companies that offer an AWD version of their cars some of them will suit your needs just fine, other will not.
The Boxer Engine design also in fact will lend it self to more oil leaks than an inline engine, or should I say more noticeable. Head gaskets have been around since the beginning of the internal combustion engine, they have changed greatly as how they can fail has. A Modern Subaru after 2003 may develop an external oil leak from the head gasket, and if not addressed can turn into a coolant leak and finally fail internally, they dont “Blow Head Gaskets”. A true AWD vehicle will suffer from more drivetrain wear than one that isnt, and this is something to keep in mind when shopping for a car.
Just about any and every car will develop an oil leak at some point in time. If you want the truth pick the car, than go to that car owners forum spend a couple of hours reading topics and post and you will maybe have a better understanding of any car you are considering. By the way The Same company that supplies HeadGaskets to Subaru also makes them for Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
If you dont need AWD than maybe you should not buy a Subaru, if however you live in an area where you may experience some weather, than yes a Subaru may make sense to you.
Subaru could develop an inline 4 cylinder, than redesign the rest of the car around it, but then they would face all of the crash rating and AWD issues that plaque the other car companies.
A BMW for example is known for being the “ultimate driving machine” but no one equates that with being easy on your wallet, or at least no one should. Subaru in my opinion could give up on this fantasy of theoretical cost of ownership by finessing the maintenance section of the owners manual and instead just say hey this car performs well but WILL cost more to maintain, they would sell fewer cars but have fewer Head gasket issues as well.
I wouldn’t expect Subaru to redesign they’re wheel anytime soon, they want to be known for safety, AWD, performance, longevity and reliability, its not that they dont care about their customers its just the opposite, they car about them being safe above all else.
Inclosing I will end with this
My Mom, Sister, Wife, Brother in law, His Mom, Sister, My Aunt, Son, Friends, Friends that asked me what to buy their kids, neighbors etc. all have Subaru’s because of me, I didn’t suggest these cars to them because I wanted to listen to them complain about head gaskets, its because I want them in cars that are safe and reliable, thats whats important to me. I work in the industry and understand there are far worse things that can happen than an oil leak from a head gasket.
I hope in your search you can find a car that lines up with your own priorities as well.
Thanks For Reading
Justin
Hello:
Are the 2.2L engines suseptible to these sames issues as the 2.5L engines?
Thanks
Try reading the First HG article, thanks.
Is that article on your website cannot locate it?
Thanks
Which Article, and did you use the search feature?
So, on 2005+ you recommend new head bolts, is this because the extra stress on them (heat, warping, etc)? Or? My car is 2006 and am doing head gaskets on it, and curious why the bolts should be replaced in this versus on older engines where they could be reused. Any chance you can further explain why you recommend new head bolts? Thanks! Shawn
Hi Justin,
Thanks for the article. My 2008 Outback owns me. It has never seen anything but a Subaru dealership repair shop and Subaru parts except for the windshield. I have for the most part followed the suggested maintenance calendar as this is my only car. It has 114,000 miles on it.
I have replaced the belts and rear wheel bearings at 106K and now been told the HG is leaking. I did have an iisue over the summer where the check engine light came on and took it in and was told I have a sticky valve and to keep the oil changed at 3k.
I have the same issue with the corrosion build up on the battery and have noticed over the summer drops in my coolant level which after reading your article suggests that the coolant system should be checked.
Should I repair the timing belt or just trade it since the repairs are getting expensive.
I would prefer to get more MPG and do a lot of highway driving in wet and snowy weather. I am not a big fan of the 2013 Outback but do like the look of the Forester.
I am in a situation which has put a lot of miles on the car this year and would prefer not to have to issues on the road.
any suggestions?
Hello J,
So your letting me know you have a HG leak but want to know if you should repair the timing belt?
If the car still suits you needs and you like it repairing it will cost less money than buying something else.
Your Subaru has been reliable from your post, it should continue to do so if you keep it. If you want a new car than by all means go buy one, the New Forester doesn’t obtain much in the way of MPG savings over a 2008 Outback.
Hope that helps
Justin
I have a right side oil leak in my 2006 Outback 2.5SOHC with 125K miles. What is your opinion of the BlueDevil Oil Stop Leak & Conditioner as a temp fix? Great blog BTW.
Please listen close, I have answered this 100 times on this site.
There is no VooDoo in a bottle that will correct this. If you choose to use a product like that you really do so at you own expense later.
Justin
I checked out a 2004 Forester 2.5 X today and everything on the car seemed great and the engine bay is typical for an 8 year old car. The one thing I noticed was that the radiator is new and looks to have been replaced. Does this indicate previous engine overheating due to headgasket issues. Where can I locate the “diaper” to inspect leaks in coolant and oil. I really don’t have enough money to purchase this car and then have to pay for additional repairs. Thank you Justin for all your help.
If you are spending you entire budget on a car and cant afford to make any repairs you had really better have a Subaru Technician do a Pre Purchase inspection on it.
I would hate to see you in a bind.
Justin
Justin,
If you were buying a Subby Outback today in the 2001-2004 range which one would be the smarter buy regarding head gasket problems considering all was the same. IE Higher Milage vehicles in the 130K range. I am sure there is a motor or year that had less problems.
Help in Hershey PA.
Nick,
2003 but pre EGR (Exhaust Gas Re-circulation), but its always about the car not the theory.
A 2001 properly maintained Subaru Outback may go 200k with no issue, a 2003 with some adjustment to prpermaintenance maintenance may only go 60k. The way the car is driven, how its maintained, climate etc all play into the longevity of the vehicle.
Justin
I have a ’95 2.2L N/A Impreza. I bought this car after it was overheated, I replaced the head gaskets and timing belt. The car has put on 9k miles since the head gasket change and now has 92k miles on it.
The car has been knocking since I have been running it. I cleaned much of the carbon deposits off the heads and valves, not so much the pistons.
I have a knock code and I believe I can hear the knocking, but I dont have another 2.2L subaru engine to compare the knocking to.
Should I be running premium instead?
There was uncertainty when I replaced the timing belt and could have advanced the timing by a tooth or 2. would the car still run if that were the case?
Any advice appreciated!
Thanks
It may run 2 degrees retarded in cam shaft timing, and you can damage it, if this is the case, better to take the timing covers off and confirm before doing more damage. Is it knocking or pinging?
Justin
Hi guys, am UK based and about a month ago bought a 97 Outback for winter. The car purred along nicely, but after a few days I noticed a gurgling noise under the dash and also that it used oil heavily-although no blue smoke from exhaust.
We managed about 2000 miles, tried to get air out etc. Car has covered 99000. Then it started to misfire and I limped it home. Found that top radiator hose was collapsed and car only running on 3 cylinders.Did not show high temp on gauge.
I have replaced radiator cap and cleaned overflow bottle out. Am about to remove and replace the plug on the non-firing cylinder.
Do you think HG has gone and it will simply foul another plug?
No external leaks visible.
Hi Phil,
I can’t really answer that question without seeing the car, and that’s just not going to happen. If the plug is the cause of the misfire it wont be the cause of the collapsed hose.
Justin
Thanks. I was worrying that the collapsed hose maybe caused the headgasket to fail and consequently foul a plug.
Only ever had one Subaru before and that was an old Justy with the 3 cylinder engine. Stuck with Honda and Hyundai before this Legacy, so just learning. Brilliant site.
Justin thanks for the article!!
any good independent mechanics in mpls/St. paul that you are aware of. 2001 legacy wagon, 51,000 miles on.
slight external coolantleakage seen on driveway off and on. I have been told that the turbo head gasket is better than the regular headgasket if one needs to replace the headgasket, what is your thinking on this?
also what non subaru made headgasket would you recommend
is tere a differnce between oem sabaru and oem non sabaru headgaskets?
thanks again!!!
Greg
Justin,
I have a 04 forester n/a, I’m aware of the headgasket issues on the single cam 2.5. Having intermittent overheating issue have replaced thermo, rad, and water pump. Bottom hose is staying cold, I have pulled the thermo a few times after driving and the coolant on top is blazing but the hose stays cold meaning no thermo opening to dump the hot coolant back to radiator. If it where say headgasket breech (small coolant and combustion) wouldnt the thermostat still open due to the thermal expansion? I was leaning towards the headgasket or cracked block/head, but I dont understand why the thermo isnt opening.
Hi Michael,
If there is an air pocket in the cooling system, it will make its way to the Thermostat and prevent it from opening, the thermostat needs hot coolant not hot air surrounding it in order to function.
Next you didn’t mention what type of thermostat you used, if its not the Subaru thermostat throw it away and buy the proper one form Subaru , if it is see above.
Hope that helps
Justin
Yes it is a subaru thermo, I used a vacuum system to put the coolant in with and also ran the car for a bit making sure it was burped out completly. Its an intermitant overheat also takes awhile of driving and it will rise and fall along the drive but the lower hose still stays cold. I have had the older 2.2 also with the bleed screw on the radiator to get the air out of the system, very comfortable working on the subaru brand just a little stumped by this one. I was thinking h/g but like I was saying I’m having trouble understanding if it is the h/g why is the thermo not opening. 100% sure all the air is out of her
. Possibly a clog (that was why radiator went in) but if its in the heater core the heat wouldnt work very well, and it has awsome heat.
I’ve checked everything possible other than HC’s in the coolant I dont have access to a meter but fans are working and I have replaced all other components.
Hi Michael,
When a HG fails internally, air from the combustion chamber is pushed into the cooling system, thats how you can have an air pocket make its way to the thermostat, you also need a coolant fill funnel to bleed the air out properly.
I dont know from here if a HG has failed are you smelling an exhaust like odor in the cooling system or seeing some residue in the overflow bottle?
Justin
Justin,
First, THANK YOU SO MUCH for your in depth forums! I bought a 2012 Outback 3.6R Limited in May and LOVE it, I can’t imagine owning any other car. In fact I found your forum because I became a fan of the Subaru Facebook page & started getting worried when I saw a couple of comments about failed HG (however, about 90% of the 1million fans express no issues w/their subarus & report mileage of up to 500,000+). After seeing the HG issues I started doing research & came across your forums.
I have a couple of questions for you. First, I see you are talking about the 2.5 models. Are you noticing issues w/the 3.6R HG? I understand it’s most likely too soon to know if 2012 models suffer the same concern.
Second, I bought the car w/1600 miles on it at a great discount (it had been used as the dealer’s ‘customer loaner car’ for about 5 months). In addition, the dealer gave us an extended warranty for 6yrs/100,000 miles (the factory warranty is only 36,000/3yr) for the power train. I’m assuming the warranty is the basic 1-4 plan but I’m considering upgrading to the classic 1-10 plan or the gold plus plan. I called the Subaru warranty folks but they said I’d have to call the dealer for pricing of the upgraded plans. We’re military & recently moved so I have not yet called a local dealer for pricing since I’m no longer near the dealer where we purchased the car. What are your thoughts on the warranty plans? Are they worth it? Are they really needed?
Thank you for pointing out to several folks that all vehicles & manufactures have issues! I had a 1996 Ford escort that had to have the tranny replaced at 80,000. I had a 2004 dodge caravan w/less than 20,000 miles that had a tranny failure/error code & the dealer refused to give me a loaner or rental car while they dismantled my tranny to find the issue (totally ridiculous that I was paying $400/month for a car still under full factory warranty & they expected me to pay for a rental car – I will never own another dodge). Instead of paying to drive another car while they fixed the van, I traded it in at another dealer for a new 2006 Buick Terraza. That car went through a set of tires at 12,000 and again at 31,000 even though I had proof of regular on time maintenance, rotation, balance, etc. The weird wear on the tires was not from under/over inflation & in fact was a common issue w/that vehicle & tires. I did get the dealer agree to give me non OSM, Michelin tires for a reduced cost and had them w/no issue until 90,000 miles when I traded it for my Subaru. Just proof that all cars have something, so I think overall Subaru is showing superiority with little major issues.
Hello Rhonda,
Thanks for sharing your Experiences.
I also Drive a 2012 Outback 3.6r, or at least I do until my Wife makes me let her drive it, lol.
I don’t expect any major issues with ours and I do change the oil every 3000 miles with synthetic blend. I dont really subscribe to the extended warranties as a general rule, partially because some of them only allow service at a Dealership, if you wanted an extended Warranty I would suggest a good Aftermarket Warranty that gives you the freedom to establish a relationship with a good service provider, either Independent or Dealer, but at your discretion not because you have to..
Hope that helps
Justin
Hi! You’re amazing to share all this mechanical info on Subarus! Thanks! It’s still a little over my head and I remain with some questions regarding my beloved 2004 Subaru Legacy with 192000kms. I drove it off the lot brand new and did all the suggested maintenance at the dealerships. I did not do them based on my driving style, I didn’t know you then! I live on a mountain, it’s one 10kms hill to come back from the city and 5kms hill from my house to the ski hill. It’s a standard and one could say I rally style drive or I’m a bit of a cowgirl at the wheel….The car has been using way more oil in the summer months , and way more in general for the last 3 years. The engine loses power on hills (It “skips a beat”), especially in the summer. I mentioned this to the shop back then and the mechanic told me to turn the AC off when on the big hill!! It worked!!
It’s currently at the Subaru mechanic’s shop, not getting work done. I brought it in for a scheduled timing belt and I asked them to check the smell again (there’s been a weird smell-maybe anti-freeze for the last 2 years) and mentioned, again ,the high oil consumption. They had found nothing before. This time, it turns out the head gaskets needs to be replaced but the mechanic told me in a hush-hush “don’t put money on it. (headgaskets would be $1800) the engine is running loud and I don’t know why and I don’t think this engine is going to last much longer, and don’t do the timing belt as it’s still in good shape. Put oil in it and hope for the best”. What shall I do? I can’t afford car payments but I can’t afford to drive my kids in an unsafe car…is this unsafe?? Thanks for taking time to read, it’s much appreciated!
Hi Genevieve,
Not knowing the cause of the oil consumption issue, I am at a bit of a loss to tell you what to do here. The HG are not the cause of going through oil, things that can also would not be seen or addressed typically during a HG repair.
Have you tried Catrol GTX to see if the consumption was improved?
If you are ok with having to put oil in it, as the consumption issue will still be there after a HG repair most likely than I would say go ahead and make the repairs.
If not than a Diagnoses of the consumption issue and most likely re ring or reman short block is probably the option you would be looking at.
I don’t understand the hush hush don’t put money thing into it at all.
Justin
Hi Justin
From South Africa, thanks for a great post, this really helped me a lot. So I recently had my 2006 Forester’s heads and valves refurbished at a dealer but after i got it back my radiator started leaking and I had it replaced. Then I noticed that the water level is low so I took the vehicle back to the shop that repaired the radiator. They tested for a combustion leak and found exhaust gasses in they cooling system. I have not even done 500 miles since the dealer refurbished the heads and valves. Who should be paying to get the car fixed, me or the dealer. The check engine light is also on so I have not even been driving at all. Thanks for your help
Leo Upton
Hello Leo,
I would think it should be on them. It sounds like the HG repair did not seal properly.
Justin
Hi Justin. Thanks for all the great info here. Changing the head gaskets on my 99 Outback and going to buy your head gasket kit. I’m still not clear on one thing. Should I or shouldn’t I use copper spray on the gaskets?
Our kit comes with a guide and explanation of what to and what to not use.
Justin
I looked at your kits and noticed for my 2004 outback, there were no cam seals (yet there were for other similar kits). Should we get/replace cam seals too? What other seals could reasonably be done while doing this HG repair?
Hi Rick,
Please have another look, its the second add on.
http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-parts/
Justin
Great info. It would be good if the web page had a brief explanation of the add-ons, and which ones would be recommended. Since many of us would want to pull the engine only once every 100k or more miles and fix as many things as might reasonably wear-out in the next 100k miles (in other words, will we probably need to repair any of these add-ons in the next 100k to 150k miles, so we should do it now?.)
Yes,
Your right, what I can offer is I do the best I can, I have it in the works to add a video soon explaining all of the options, different seals and so on.
All I need now is the 30 hour day and the 9 day week, lol.
We have shot some of the video, but I wasn’t happy with it, so its a matter of my Wife having time to come down and film me talking. In the mean time you are always welcome to email me abut other seal and gasket options
Thanks
Justin
Good afternoon. I’m looking at a couple used Imprezas from a local dealer – one is a 2011 Impreza Outback Sport and the other is a 2009 Impreza 2.5i Premium. Both have 53K miles on the odometer. I have a local mechanic that I completely trust, who specializes in Japanese autos…though I’m nut sure how many Subies he sees.
I’m completely new to the Subaru world, and this site is the first I’ve seen discussing the HG issues (though, to be honest, I haven’t been looking too hard). What sort of questions should I ask the dealer? They say that each car is a 1-owner vehicle, for whatever that’s worth. If both cars have similar mileage, is there a significant mechanical difference between the ’09 and the ’11? Any guidance you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Mechanically they are very similar.
Conventional wisdom says you should buy the newest model with the lowest miles. I suggest you purchase which ever car checks out the best as that will over the long run be the better value even if its a higher price.
The dealer will know little to nothing about the car most likely, unless the car was serviced there.
Hope that helps
Justin
Hi Justin,
Your article was very interesting and I admit I know nothing about a car. My husband and I love our trips to the Smokey Mountains and I’ve wanted a Subaru Outback for a long time. We decided to look when we returned to the flatlands of the Virginia coast. I was so excited and got on the Internet and found a 2007 Subaru Outback LL Bean at a Carmax in Va Beach (60K miles). It looked great, seemed to drive fine and we bought it. That was in May of this year 2012. Boy did they see us coming. Well our first trip was the end of October and about two days before we left, the check engine light came on. My husband took it to some local shop and they told him there was a misfire in Cyl. 6. They drove it and reset the code (I think that’s what the called it, topped up the oil and told him they thought it would be fine. Well we made it all the way to Black Mountain and the CEL came on again and it started missing. We took it to a shop in Bryson City and they changed the Cyl 6 spark plug and coil. They gave the old SP to my husband and said they had never seen one so bad. They also said that some of the things they saw looked like a car with a lot more miles and that it must be using oil since it was low and it had been topped before we left. I was heart broken, but It drove fine coming home, then two days ago it began dying on us and the check engine light came on. couldn’t drive it over 40 mph. We took it to the Sabaru dealer in Newport News and got the word that a full compression test would need to be done. #6 was misfiring and losing compression. He gave my husband a bunch of readings and said it didn’t look good. He said numerous things could be wrong all the way to a cracked head. I could have just cried. Then I began searching the Internet. After reading what you said about the head gasket and how you could get taken, I even felt worse. We wanted that car to drive in the mountains so bad that we never even thought of something like this. We purchased extended full warranty on the car at least, but never in a million years did we think something this bad could have happened. I know my husband wishes he never had seen this car and I’m kind of feeling like I’m responsible because I pushed it so hard. I just fell in love with it. Actually, I think I just needed to write all this down to help me feel better. It’s about 5 o’clock (am) and I have to think about beginning to prepare Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow and its not easy. I am sorry, but I really feel like I’ve been totally messed up (that’s not what I really wanted to say.) No one will probably read this gosh awful long post, but I do feel a little better. I watched your video and if the technician says he wants to do the quick fix thing you mentioned on the head gasket I’ll know not to let him do that. I intend to read this whole article again! Thanks so much and I wish you lived around here!
Hello Mona,
Sorry to hear about this, but I want to stress that the Model you bought is not known for this issue, I think you just bought one that wasn’t taken care of correctly and now this is one of those life lessons.
Based on what you have posted, I think the spark plug probably came apart and damaged either a valve or piston. The good news is you have the warranty. Please make sure the other 5 spark plugs get replaced as well as a full service. aka all fluids, filters, maintenance items etc. A very common mistake is after a big repair the fact that it wasn’t maintained properly is what caused it and the rest of the deferred maintenance stays deferred.
Hope that helps and happy Holidays
Justin
Thanks Justin,
I really appreciate you getting back to me. The Subaru service manager pulled the moter and feels like it may be a small crack in the head. They are waiting for the insurance inspector to come and check it out. He just could not be definitive in what was causing the problem and I’m not good enough to explain exactly what he said. All I know is there was oil where there wasn’t suppose to be. I think the rings are okay and the head gasket was okay. He showed me the spark plugs and the one from the sixth cylinder looked bad, but none of them looked that hot to me. I actually stopped by to get my GPS, I was so upset I forgot it, and he took me in the garage and showed me the parts they had pulled out. Well I’ve wanted a Subaru for a long time, I just picked out one that was not taken car of and probably ruined the engine. I just wish it had shown up a lot sooner than the 5 1/2 months. Thanks again for your reply. I’ll post the final outcome. I wish I had been savvy enough to pick up on a problem.
Mona
PS: He also said they may decide it would be better to replace the engine than have it sent out to a machinist to be repaired.
Well, the inspector came by and it looks like the sixth cylendar is toast. The whole thing is bad. There was no cracked head, but the damage is so intensive they have decided to replace the engine. We will have to wait about a week and a half before the motor gets here but it has under 60k which is less than what we had. The insurance is going to cover most of the cost and cover the replacement motor for the full 100 k miles. You don’t even want to know what the cost is. Thank goodness we had the insurance. All the fluids will be replaced and maintenance items, plus new boots. I really don’t think the original owner did anything. You are so right about a life lesson. I don’t think we will ever buy a used car again, but hopefully we will have a decent one after this. I just want to be able to take it to the mountains without worrying.
Well the core engine has been replaced along with the front axel and boots, all fluids, spark plugs and all maintenance items updated. We brought it home Saturday. Our cost was 3K -700 in parts the insurance paid. I don’t know how much the insurance paid on the engine and labor cost for that. Tonight my husband went to the store and the engine light came on, lost power and antifreeze seems to be leaking. I truly have had it. I have all my receipts and I’m getting ready to lamb blast Carmax. No matter what, this should not happen to a car we have had less than six months and was sold to us supposedly in good condition. This last problem may be nothing more than a hose loose, but the headache has been impossible. The mechanic gave me a card to fill out and send to Subaru for your 1st Subaru and they will send you a decal. I guess we are suppose to tell them how happy we are with our car. Well we were for a little while, but now are regretting it more than any decision we have ever made.
Hi Mona,
I want to start with telling you I do Sympathize with you because of all of the trouble you are having, but im also using this as an example to other readers as why you never ever never buy a Used car without letting an expert on that model conduct a prepurchase inspection.
Thats the one thing that would have changed this for you. Most likely its something minor, its not uncommon after a large repair to have something esle pop up, the bugs will get worked out and you will enjoy the car again, or you’ll trade it in and somebody else will, and be most likely oblivious to all you went through and have a totally different perspective.
Justin
Wow! Thanks for providing thorough information in relatively easy-to-understand terms!
I have a 2007 Subaru Impreza (not WRX) -standard 141 000 km’s, about 6 weeks ago had the check engine light come on simultaneously with the cruise light flashing – it was an engine valve and was replaced. Two days ago the check engine light went on, again with the cruise light. Erring on the side of caution I had it towed to my mechanic. When tested, it came up with a catalytic emmisions code, they cleared the code and it hasn’t yet come back. In the meantime I have noticed a small amount of oil on the floor in the garage where the car is parked. It is still at the mechanics and I have asked them to check for an oil leak.
Any insight? This is my first subaru, previously having driven domestic cars to almost 300 000 km’s with no engine problems, so I’m a bit wary, is this now going to be one engine problem after another?
Secondarily, I had a full brake job in 2009, rears in 2011 and now a full brake job again now. This seems excessive, thoughts?
Hi Allyn,
DO you mean you had an intake or exhaust valve replace or a complet valve job and then the Catalyst code showed up a short period of time after that?
As far as brakes, its all about how you drive it, Subaru Brakes a general rule dont wear out any quicker than any other AWD vehicle, actually less than most AWD vehicles.
I dont know what Domestic car (post 1996) you have driven that has never had a check engine light come on and repairs done to address it, but if thats the case thats an exception.
I cant tell you what to do with your 5 year old Subaru. Its common place to question it after a couple of repairs, easier to just go buy something else with a warranty, much more expensive to do so.
Justin
I’m not exactly sure re: valve – it was a $40 part ….something in the engine that regulates the oil??? The mechanic said when it fails it causes a massive oil leak when running?
I love my car. I was thrilled when I found one used with only 12000 k on it.
I had intended on running it until it died -I’m just wondering if these problems are customary, or should I be thinking of selling it and looking for a used Forester?
If I do consider the forester (I’d prefer 2009 or newer with less than 60000k) is there anything I should be aware of – typical mechanical concerns/problems?
Do I understand correctly that a $40.00 dollar repair has you questioning the reliability of the Subaru?
Modern cars, and I mean ALL modern cars are vending machines for parts and service, that’s where the money is made. If you want to buy something else go ahead, but please understand its just a vicious cycle, the sooner you figure it out the more money your bank account will have in it.
The 2009 has more to fail than the car you own, a 2013 more than the 2009. Every few years there are new emissions control devices added, more safety features, creature comforts, more lights, fancy stereos etc. This adds to the want to buy factor, but the more there is the more there is to fail.
So when I have someone that posts about wanting to buy something else newer based on not having to spend money all I can say is its nonsensical. Buy something else for any other reason other than spending less money. Subaru’s are not known for leaving you stranded, you should not fear reliability.
Justin
No, a $40 part was a $259 repair, 5 weeks later I have an engine oil leak and a yet fully undiagnosed check engine/cruise light caution that is reading as a catalytic emissions code, these in combination are causing me to question MY subaru, not the brand, as is apparent by my willingness to purchase another.
Thanks for the info, you are obviously both a knowledgeable and passionate advocate.
Hi Justin,
I recently brought my 2003 Subaru Forester with 70,000 miles in for an oil change at the dealership and asked if they would check for a “radiator like” odor. The bad news was that I need head gaskets. $2300.00.I had never had any leaking or overheating, just a recent odor. I had been thinking about buying a new car before all of this happened and now I’m really afraid to keep it. They are telling me not to drive it as it could go at any time. They offered me $3000.00 as a trade in as “they could only sell it at auction”. I know that they can fix it cheaper than what it would cost me but they say not really. I kind of feel like I’m being taken advantage of but really like the 2013 Foresters and wonder if this would still be a problem with the new ones. I have since found a local very qualified Subaru mechanic that would fix it for much less. Not sure what to do. Any input from you would be greatly appreciated. Your info here is a huge help to all. Thank you. I also had the water pump and timing belt replaced less than a year ago. 800.00 BTW, the dealerships really do infir that if you had only brought it to them it may not have happened.
Carol
Hello Carol,
“BTW, the dealerships really do infir that if you had only brought it to them it may not have happened.”
It happens more to vehicles out of warranty that are maintained at the Subaru Dealer much more so than if maintained by a Good Subaru Independent Shop.
Why would you be afraid to repair and keep a vehicle that developed an oil leak? New car sales are fueled by fear more than any other factor.
If the car doesn’t suit your needs any longer than yes you shouldn’t repair it, but if it does you will $25,000.00 ahead by repairing what you already have VS buying a new car that will develop an oil leak in time as well.
Justin
GDAY MATE,JUST BEEN TOLD OUR 2002 2.5L IS LEAKING OIL AND WATER FROM THE HEAD GASKET.WE WERE IN THE PROCESS OF PUTTING IT ON THE MARKET AND WANT 2 KNOW IF OR HOW LONG CAN WE LIMP THE CAR TROUGH?ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT
No idea without seeing it.
Sorry
Justin
Justin,
This is a great article thank you for taking your time in writing this article what wondering info.
I have a 2004 outback with 192,000 and still running like a charm. But, I just had the oil pan replaced cause the drain plug got striped out and my mechinic noticed I had a head gasket leak. (Oil Only) I’ve been smelling it for about a year now. My gas milage has gone from 25 MPG to 21 MPG since I’ve start smelling burning oil AKA head gasket leak. But, my check engine light is showing that my O2 senser are bad too.
My question is could a leaking head gasket cause poor gas milage? I know a bad O2 sensor can cause a little loss in MPG.
The car is only worth 2k -3k and wondering if I should fix the head gasket or just drive to see if I can get over 200k and keep going. I’ve seen 240k on older outbacks. Like to get you option to fix it or not.
Thanks
Ken
Justin,
This info is just great. Best site I’ve seen. I have a leaking HG on a 2006 Outback 2.5I. It only has 70,000 miles. I took it in and the mechanic basically told me to not bother, as there is a terrible track record with HG going again after they have been fixed. Is it possible to have it fixed with a long term solution?
Thanks so much
Dave
This is a great forum and thanks for all the info. I have a leaking HG on a 2006 Outback 2.5i. It only has 70,000 miles, so I would like to keep it, but a mechanic recently advised me to walk away, as he suggests there is terrible track record with these breaking down again after they have been fixed. Is it possible to have a long term solution for a fixed HG?
Thanks!
Dave
We don’t have a track record of issues after a car is repaired. If the repair is made correctly instead of by a Tech in a hurry then yours should be fine as well.
So yes not only is it possible its very common.
Justin
You stated that there was an issue with the Impreza from mid year 98 and beyond. How can I determine if an 98 is the early or late year model?
While the good news is that my head gaskets are not leaking oil or coolant yet…
They were changed at 70,000 km with the updated gaskets when the countermeasure pistons were installed, now have 280,000 km on them. Pretty religious on the coolant and oil changes.
But the bad news is that my oil pump is now leaking so badly its coating everything up front with oil, and now the oil is migrating back to the head gasket and exhaust collector.
As typical with oil leaks, it looks way worse than it is. Nonetheless I will be taking that oil pump off this week-end to replace the seals. I have a the o ring and crank seal, I ended up with two of each at my last timing belt change out.
Question is which gasket maker should I use? I am getting wildly different opinions. Permatex seems to list gasket makers for everything but oil pumps.
I searched your site for “Gasket Maker” and it did not come up, apologies if its listed somewhere and I missed it.
Thanks!
Subaru Three Bond, or Toyota FPIG in black
Hi Justin,
I just stumbled on your site while researching an issue with my 2002 Subaru Forester after just having the head gaskets rebuilt (replaced?) by the local Subaru dealer.
My gas mileage has dropped by half after the HG work. Only 170 miles on a full tank of gas. The car is back in the shop today for them to run diagnostics but so far they have come up with nothing. No code on o2 sensor before HG work and none today.
Would there be anything else that would cause the car to use this much gas?
Thanks,
Peg H.
Hi Peg,
1. If the the tank of fuel was the same tank that was used to idle the vehicle for an hour while the cooling system was being burped that would be part of it, as there would have been a whole lot of fuel burned without driving any miles.
2. Its colder out now and fuel economy will be lower in the winter, it always is it has no choice.
3. The short term memory was erased during the repair and thew computer will need to go through some drive cycles before proper fuel economy is regained.
4. It could have something wrong, either with something affected by the failure of the Head gaskets, or something during the repair.
Justin
Excellent job on this whole Subaru issue!
Hi Justin
Thank you so much for all this great information! I wish I had known about this site before I bought my 2013 Outback 2.5 Premium, 6sp manual. I see problems with head gaskets and wheel bearings. It seems the problems have tapered off but have they been eliminated? As you know the Outback got the new 2.5 this model year, but it has been in the Forester for a couple years. Is the jury still out? Is there anything else I should keep an eye on?
It sounds like your advice to owners has been that these were a couple known issues (at least in the past) and to accept it and move on, and at least they were problems with warning signs and time to plan/budget for repair? And of course Volvo and Audi upkeep costs are much higher. Let me offer that the new engine has a timing chain, no belt to replace. So there’s ONE less big maintenace issue to worry about! Customers could also save another grand by opting for the manual trans. which is soooooo much more satisfying to drive!
Thanks again!
Hi Justin — Thanks so much for your incredibly helpful posts. I am thinking of purchasing a 2006 Outback 2.5i, 51K miles on it, for $13,300, with the following diagnosis (from a Subaru shop): “Both headgaskets starting to leak externally – scale of 1 out of 5 (5=worse) – minor leak. Also performed block test to check for emissions gasses present in the cooling system and confirmed very low levels are present (indicates minor internal head gasket(s) leak presence). Any thoughts about: a) What the extent of repairs is (mechanical and cost); b) Would you do the HG repair work right away (or can it be monitored over time)? c) Do you think this is a good deal or would you recommend I keep searching for another Outback with no HG problems? Thanks much, Karin
I have a question about HG jobs on a 2001 Outback 2.5L, bare essential vs full boat. I’ve seen quotes for an essentail job for $1600 vs $2400 for the full boat.
The “bare essentials” job didn’t include the following:
-Rear main seal
-Rear separator plate
-Rear piston o-ring
-Left hand cylinder head plug
-Front crank seal
-Front camshaft seals
-Crossover water pipe o-rings
-Valve adjustment
-Timing belt
-Water pump
-Idler pulleys and tensioner
-Thermostat
What is your opinion on this list and whether or not they should be replaced during a HG job?
Hi Adam,
Thats actually a more complicated Question than many understand.
Yes to
Valve adjustment
-Timing belt
-Water pump
-Idler pulleys and tensioner
-Thermostat
Inspect and advise to
-Rear main seal
-Rear separator plate
-Rear piston o-ring
-Left hand cylinder head plug
-Front crank seal
-Front camshaft seals
-Crossover water pipe o-rings
Or do it all as maintenance. And add spark plugs, wires, valve job plus all coolant hoses and clamps.
I generally suggest the timing components, because if one fails, it will be catastrophic and there would be no warranty against such unless they were replaced by the shop making the repairs.
The rear Sep plate should be aluminum in 2001, and there is no need to replace, only reseal, the rear main, front main and cam seals should be the Viton coated seals from the Factory and can last 300k, if good oil is used in many Subaru’s, but they can be done while its apart for maint and piece of mind. I will add that sometimes when removing a cam seal on a Subaru the sealer between the cam case and cylinder head can be disturbed and you can create a leak to repair later in an attempt to avoid one.
Cross over o-rings are nice to do while its apart as they do not last the life of the car, we inspect and advise here.
We check Valve adjustment as part of the service so should any good shop.
What we try to do is Quote out the HG repair, quote the timing components and Water pump, inspect and advise on anything else. All of it can add several hundreds if not double the whole repair, sometimes that’s just not in a Subaru owners budget, so we will focus on the repair, and the things that will avoid a catastrophic failure such as the timing idler seizing.
Hope that helps, but like I said its complicated.
Justin
Justin,
Thanks for the quick reply I really appreciate it.
A few follow-up questions:
1. Say my 2001 Outback has 202k miles and has never had the head gaskets replaced, would you then reccommend replacing the other seals and o-rings?
2. My outback has been leaking oil only for the last 5 years and has now gotten worse, is this a common HG symptom?
3. I’ve been using the Subaru coolant conditioner with Peak Global coolant for the last 6 years, is it possible that my original head gaskets are still fine and the oil leak is from somewhere else?
4. What is a valve job, what does it cost, and how is it different than a valve adjustment?
Thanks again for all of the knowledge I truly appreciate it.
Hi Justin,
Thanks for replying. I really wasn’t expecting you to answer again. I wish I had done what you said. I went back and read the paperwork from Carmax and it said we had five days to keep the car and return it if we wish, but it was running great and I was just so proud of it and very trusting. After the 2nd episode with the Outback the code came up as the throttle so the mechanic took the old one from our old engine, cleaned it up and replaced it. It ran great for two days and then on a short trip to Chick-fil-a, while driving, all of a sudden it was like the pedal went dead. You could push it to the floor and it would do nothing while in drive. If I put it in neutral the motor sounded like it was revving up real fast, like if I let off the brake it would take off. I called Subaru back and they sent a wrecker to pick it up. The manager called and told us to come and pick up a loaner and said he thought it was the electrical harness (I hope I’m saying that right) and something about it going in to limp mode. The mechanic said if I had wiggled the battery cables it would have reset something (code, I think) and it would have ran. (I’m sorry, I can’t remember everything he said.). The head mechanic was driving my car tonight so if it acted up while he had it, he could read the code while the problem was occurring. My husband and I did go together to look at the car and I don’t think he thought about having it checked anymore than I did. We thought the car looked great, was only 5 years old and drove fine. We just never dreamed we were buying in to this major problem. I talked with Warren, the manager, and asked him about a trade in. He felt like we could work something out. I also asked him if he thought he could really fix this car and put it out on the lot and he said he did. I am a photographer and photograph a lot of new homes. I drive everywhere and I drive a lot. I can’t go on never being able to trust the car and at this point I don’t think I should. It’s truly been a nightmare. Justin, you can use me as an example of what not to do all you want if it will help keep someone from going through the same thing. I don’t know that we will ever truly find out what was wrong with this Subaru and I’m to the point if I can get out of this headache without too big of a loss that’s probably what we will do.
I will let you know though if we end up with a new Subaru and thanks again.
Thanks for the articles Justin.
I have an 06 Outback (130 K) non turbo with coolant leaking into cylinders. I admit I ran it to long while it overheated. Typical symptoms I’ve read about other Subarus. Temp goes too high for about a mile, returns to normal and is fine. Then one day it didn’t go back to normal. It lost power and I shut it off. I now have the engine out and all apart. There is a hollow recessed area on both heads right in between the 2 combustion chambers. It checks about .015″ deep. Can I have this head cut down this much to clean up the surface? I’m estimating it would be about .020″ to clean up.
Hi Jim,
It can be done, but I don’t know what you are using for a Gasket, you cant use anything other than a Thicker gasket if you machine that much off of the heads.
Im curious how ever to just how warped he block is?
Have you checked?
Justin
Justin,
Block has a very slight dip in between the bores off about .0015″.
Do you know where can I get a gasket .020 thicker?
Not .020 thicker but the Six star for your application is thicker than OE
Hi justin, this is an awesome site with a wealth of info. Thanks for posting all of this info im sure it takes up a lot of your time. I have used the search function and done a ton of reading and cant find a definative answer to my question. If you were going to purchase a newer outback, which year and engine would you get? Ive read that the 2.5xt turbo had a much lower failure rate but i dont want to have to put premium fuel in the car and ive also read that the 3.6 has a much lower failure rate. I also like the redesign starting in 2010. Have you had the chance to take apart a 2010 yet, is it the semi closed deck block? I dont need the extra power from the turbo or the 6, just trying to avoid the head gasket issue if possible. Sorry for the long post , i just want to make the best informed decision that i possibly can. Whats your suggestion?
Here is the thing
I would buy any used Outback, predicated on service records and a good pre purchase inspection performed by a Subaru expert. I can tell you there are changes to the 2010 and newer models to thew block, heads and gaskets, but no one can tell you what they will be like for a few more years to come.
Yes the H6 may have fewer failures, The turbo models are no longer available and require premium fuel, but what if I told you that trying to run any car on regular is silly?
Here is the broken record that I am
If you want a True AWD Vehicle with a high marks for safety. You have three choices.
Audi
Volvo
Subaru.
Each one will need different things over time, the Subaru may need HG, it may not. I always commend those doing research ahead of purchase, I now need you to continue and compare the Subaru to the other 2 and while its true other makes have an AWD version of a 2wd model, none are the same as The Subaru, a true AWD vehicle will always exhibit more drive train wear than a non AWD vehicle. It is true however that you could buy something else and not have a HG replacement in its future, but there will be other things that occur.
I still maintain that if you take care of your Subaru it wont be all that bad to own over the course of 10 to 15 years, many hone in on the HG thing and feel it a deterrent to ownership, I can also understand that as well.
Justin
I have a 2000 Outback wagon with the 2.5 engine, I am the original owner. My mechanic informed me that it was time to replace the head gasket. I approved the repair. Once into the engine, the mechanic informed me that there was a significant build up of engine sludge and it is compromising the integrity of the engine. His recommendation is to replace the engine if I intended to hold onto the car for any length of time. What I have observed it isn’t as bad as some of the photos you have submitted in your articles. Can sludge be that detrimental and have you ever recommend a rebuild or replacement?
Hi Wes,
Sludge can take life off of the engine, how much is hard for me to say especially without seeing it.
If your “mechanic” has been involved in the service of your vehicle up to this point what does he think about the fluids he suggests and the service intervals the oil is being changed.
There is no reason for sludge other than poor main habits whether that be you not changing the oil enough, or him using garbage oil.
What to do from here?
1. Identify the mistakes made in the past and correct them.
2. Compare the updated repair cost VS vehicle replacement costs.
But here is what I don’t know
Where is he getting the engine from? If its aftermarket I would take my chances with the sludge. If its Subaru they only sell a short block, then your heads have to be sent out.
Justin
Thanks for taking time to write this. Pretty disenchanted 3x Subaru owner (86DL, 88 Legacy wagon, 06 Outback). Older cars were driven well past 180k each and needed general maintenance. 06 Outback has needed way too much IMO, thankfully we purchased used with the extended 100k warranty in place.
At a measly 104,000 we now need a head gasket. This when we took it in at 99,000 and ask them to identify and fix any issues. They found nothing yet now only two months later they find 3500 worth of “fixings.
Completely disappointed that we are spending $20k on cars these days which last 100k miles if we’re lucky. Sticking with VWs as they have given us no trouble in 4 vehicles.
Hi JD,
So did you take it a Stealer at 99k or a good independent Shop? Had a good shop looked at it, and it was covered under the warranty you paid for your experience would be totally different.
I hope you are joking about repair costs of a 2006 Outback VS an AWD VW, if you have not checked the VW owners forums, please go have a look prior to dropping 20k on the bottom of the barrel of German engineering. Dont get me wrong VWs are nice cars, but cost a lot to own and maintain especially after the 60,000 mile mark. So when you tell me you are looking to replace a car because it costs to much to own, and want to replace it with one that cost more, I am puzzled. Again I am talking about a AWD to AWD comparison.
By the way the reason the 2006 has cost more to own VS a 1988 is thanks to the thing called the “quest for cleaner air”.
Justin
all cars are cheap if you do the work yourself, otherwise, bend over- ive always been a vw guy, only because the repairs have typically been minor- and i feel comfortable diy’ing. ive driven vw’s since 1985- and never, not once replaced a head gasket or a transmission. these cars all had over 100k on them when i finished, typically around 160-180k. timing belts on 4cyl engines are a cake walk, and the 12v v6 uses chains – so no worries. had a 12v gti that i regularly wound up to 100+ mph, it used zero oil, and had no issues with 140k on the clock, shifter was still tight, and it pulled like a train. was looking at subies lately, but i think ill stick with what works after reading this (and about 5000 other posts / sites)!
Justin:
My 2.5 engine failed and seized up completely on my 2005 Outback at about 120,000 miles. The Subaru dealer said the engine was shot and could not be repaired. They couldn’t tell me what the problem was without taking it apart completely and that would cost a lot of money.
Is there any hidden or extended warranty that would apply in this case?
To whom can I appeal if there is no coverage?
Thanks,
Dano
Hello Dano,
You have made no mention on if that car was low on oil or overdue for an oil change. Next without seeing it I don’t know what happened either but it doesn’t have to come all the way apart to have a general idea of what happened, the Stealers are famous for this type of a thing and you are probably being taken for a ride. At a minimum they can tell you what seized, cam if so which one, crankshaft seized or through a rod. Engines in fact do not need to come all the way apart to have a general idea of what happened only if you want an exact.
Your Subaru came with a 5 year power train warranty, its been your car since then.
Justin
Hi,
My 99 Forester, with 157,000 miles has been a wonderful car. I have maintained it well. It recently started over heating and I had it checked. It turns out it needs a new head gasket and similar to all your other readers the cost estimate is around 3000k. Would I be better off having rebuilt engine placed, instead of replacing the head gasket? I was unaware that this a problem for this engine until now and would like to keep my well maintained little car for another 100000 miles if possible!
Thanks!
As long as it has not over heated significantly and multiple times the engine in it should be ok, but not having it in front of me puts me at a disadvantage.
The car is capable of going to well over 300k, its just going to need some help to get there.
Answering your question, about how long you can drive it, you cant drive it with it having an over heating issue, you will need to budget for an engine if you elect to drive it, I am sorry and that sucks for me to have to tell you but I dont want you to ruin it.
Justin
And a follow up question:
How long can I continue to drive the car while I explore my options. When is too much really too much?
Thanks!
Hi Justin, great article.
I recently bought a 2004 Liberty 2.5i that has done 160,000km. It passed all pre-purchase inspections but a service at a Subaru dealership revealed a “small oil leak in the LH head gasket”. They said would give it a clean (I’m not quite sure what that entails) and didn’t seem overly concerned by it, stating they can keep them going for a very long time as is and they will continue to monitor it each I time I service it there.
I’m tempted to get a second opinion from an independent mechanic I trust, however just on your statement from the article above – “If you want to try to avoid the whole head gasket thing consider using premium fuel”, would using premium fuel from now on be likely to prevent the problem advancing beyond just a “small oil leak”? Or perhaps more realistically, delay it? Obviously there a no guarantees.
I’m not handy with cars and appreciate your advice.
Thanks.
If they clean it, how will the next guy see the leak?
I think who ever did the prepurchase inspection may have done you a disservice, if based on a prepurchase inspection you paid full price rather than a discounted price based on a potential HG repair in its future.
What do do from here, all you can do is monitor the situation and make repairs as needed. My suggestions about using better gas pertain to day one and prevention, like suggesting Vitamin C to avoid a cold, once you have a cold Vitamin C wont prevent it but can help subdue it. Use of Premium Fuel may prolong the situation, but from the sounds of it its a repair in the waiting?
Justin
Hi Justin, thanks for your reply, and advice. It’s really good of you to take the time to write the article and respond to so many questions.
The independent dealer I bought it from had it serviced prior to selling so perhaps they cleaned it enough to be missed during the inspection? I’ll take it to my mechanic in a couple of weeks and see what he says. If he also believes it to be very minor at the moment and only something to monitor over time I’ll be more comfortable with that than the advice of the Subaru dealership I’ve only been to once. Unfortunately though I think you’re right in saying it’s a repair in waiting.
I might start using premium fuel anyway if it’s better for the engine as a whole (the price difference isn’t ludicrous at the moment).
Thanks again.
Glenn
Hello.
I bought a 2006 2.5i 5spd with 90K. I havent even pout 4K miles on it, woke up to what looks like a medium ice coffee xx spilled under my car. I have a warranty for one year or 15k, which i have not gone either, but am sure this will not be covered. I am assuming the fluid is coolant mixed with oil?
No idea from here, did someone spill coffee under your car? There is not really anything that would mix with oil than leak out.
Justin
Thank you Justin for your insight on this issue.I have a 2006 Impreza 2.5i with 118K miles. I recently started smelling oil(about a month ago) and asked my dealer to check it out when I did my oil change a few weeks ago. He commented that it was the head gaskets, just a little leak at this point. He said we can probably watch it and wait to fix it. On my last tank of gas I noticed the gas mileage was dropping what I think is a considerable amount (40-50 miles less per tank) Now I am re-considering and not sure if I should baby it until summer. I drive mostly highway miles for work, so that is a big factor in my mind for consideration. What would your thought on the repair at this point.
Thanks
The Fuel economy drop is normal this time of the year, its not related to a minor oil leak. Id monitor it for a bit and see if it gets worse for the sounds of it.
You can read here for why Economy drops in the winter.
Hope that helps
Justin
Justin,
My daughter is in Kalamazoo, MI and in need of a head gasket repair on her 2003 Legacy. Can you recommend a shop in that area?
Thanks,
Mark
I’m sorry but I just don’t know anyone to send her to in that part of the Country.
Justin
Hi Justin!
Great page very helpful! Ok so i have a 98 forester s w/168k miles, had both hg changed a few thousand miles ago alog w machining the heads at a shop. The past 3 days i have had to add coolant everyday because the level keeps going lower. The car isn’t overheating , no overflow or bubbling in coolant, and no appearant leaks underneath. Everything seems to be running normal for time being but i was just wondering if the new hg could be going bad already. Also have put new exhaust, cats, pipes, muffler etc. Along with a new battery, and many many other new parts. A friend and local mechanic charged 500.00 to machine heads and with labor and parts charged me 1000.00 to do the hg.
The coolant loss could be a cracked head, if you are not seeing coolant leaking externally. Has anyone done a cooling system pressure test?
The best way to look for this is to drop the exhaust header pipe and have a look for the signs of coolant @ the exhaust ports as this is where they typically crack.
Justin
Nnot yet that’s my next area to have them check, thanks
Hey Justin
I just started smelling oil burning when the car was first started.(07 outback)
I started to change my oil this weekend and I found oil dripping of the filter and the engine above the filter onto the pipe. I can see a small shiny spot at the gasket where I guessing the leak is.
It is just starting to get the front of the motor mount wet. So for right now I wiped the oil of the engine installed the new filter and new oil.
So far nothing has leaked on the floor and my car does not have splash pan. I know it needs to be fixed. Question is with 73,000 miles would you leave the timing belt or change it. I only drive about 6000 miles a year so it would take some time to reach 105,000.
I live in Northeast Pa, boarder of NY and so far all I can fine is a dealer witch I dont really care for.
I have change GM intake gaskets, pulled engines and a bunch of other repairs over the years. I was wondering how detailed is you info that comes with the gaskets you sell. I know with a good guide I could do this job the right way.
If you know a good suburu shop in this area that would be great also.
Thanks Gary
ps This car has been a little needy but I plan to make it all right. I’m into it now, no turning back.
The repair guide is a guide aimed at helping a DIY or shop through the repair, you can also email me with questions directly and I will help you as you need it.
I would do the timing belt and all of the other associated components as the items left to chance can sneak up on you a few years later and bite back hard.
Justin
Thanks for the reply Justin
I think with the guide and maybe a question or 2 if needed I will be ok.
How do I go about getting a price for all the parts that you would install ? Shipped to 18812.
I would like to put the repair off a little if you think I can. Even if I bought the parts now.
At this point I’m not loosing any real noticeable fluids but I don’t want to make matters worse either.
I have a great speed shop here to check the heads and work them if needed.
Thanks for your help
Gary
Justin,
Glad I found this. We have an 06 Forester that we took in for an oil chage at 3000 mi. Maintained well 56000mi. Tech said found bad piston slap and blue smoke from pipe when started. No oil on dip stick. Only thing we noticed is smell like vinegar on occasion and one time started a little hard. We let them pull the engine. They said piston rings seized due to oil burning and cross hatching on cylinder #4 almost completely gone. Say we need a new engine and they don’t know why. My research and even their mechanic say most probable is head gasket failure. Head gaskets were machined and replaced in May 2012. Still under warranty. Do you think this problem could be caused by head gaskets? Thank you.
Piston oil control rings can fail for other reasons other than Head gaskets. Its hard to correlate an external fluid leak to worn piston rings. Now if there was some debris that occurred during the repair that partially blocked lubrication to cylinder # 4 than it wouldn’t have been the failed HG but the repair, which you said was under warranty, so it was done at the dealer and in the car and thats most likely what happened it will be hard to prove at this point but im 90% sure thats what happened as the symtoms are not typical all by themselves on that era Subaru.
It would be my suggestion to have a conversation with the Service manager and if you dont get anywhere 1 800 Subaru 3.
Hope that helps
Justin
Hi Justin,
I have a 2006 Baja (not turbo) and I took it to a repair shop just today because I’ve noticed that the temp gauge has been hanging around somewhere in the middle range. This seemed a bit higher than normal, so I got suspicious. Also, in the past couple of weeks I thought I could smell a faint odor like coolant. Not all the time, but once in a while.
The guy at the shop called me and told me that he found a coolant leak in a cylinder head and an oil leak in a cylinder head. He hasn’t started any repairs yet and was waiting to hear back from his parts guy on some parts costs. He will call me tomorrow with a repair estimate.
Now, since I read your post above, I feel that I should go get my car tomorrow and bring it to the independent Subaru/Volvo repair shop down the street. I just know that those guys are expensive.
I don’t really know how severe the leaks are and I don’t know that it’s the head gasket. But reading your information, it seems pretty clear.
Here is some other information that factors into this whole mess. I bought this car a year ago and I still owe about $12,000. Now I’m probably going to have to fork out $1,000-$2,000 for a repair. This is money that I don’t readily have. Also, I need this car to get to and from work, so I can’t afford for the shop to keep my car for an extended period. It’s possible they have a loaner-car program while my car is being worked on.
I’m totally stressed out because I don’t have a lot of cash for a costly repair, and I need my car to get to work.
With the coolant leak and oil leak in cylinders, is there anything else it could be besides a head gasket?
Thanks for the info.
Hi Travis,
Im sorry to hear of the situation but it doesn’t sound like you have a whole lot of choice here.
If a shop cant give you an estimate fairly quickly for a repair thats a warning sign that they may not have done very many of these. there may be some other circumstances, all i can give you is my impressions.
Couple out of the box thoughts would be to ask the bank to refinance the car loan with some cash out for the repairs if money is an issue, this was something that could be done in the past, I dont know if banks will still do it but I believe credit unions will.
I hate to see you head down a repair you cant pay for, but as you stated its a long way from paid for so I dont know what else you can do other than repair it and drive it for may years to come, but in order for all of that to happen it has to be the right repair or this will be worse for you later.
Hope that helps
Best of luck
Justin
I appreciate the quick response, Justin. I got an estimate this morning for $1,800 from the regular shop. I made an appointment at an independent Subaru shop for Monday, so I’ll take it there and see what they have to say. There are only two independent Subaru shops in St. Louis and they are both within a mile of my house. Unfortunately, one is only open M-F, the other one is only open from 10-2 on Saturday. I will have to suck-it-up and pay for the repair. I love my Baja and can’t let it go just yet. I drove all the way to Indiana to get it, as they can be hard to find. Wish me luck!
Justin,
Just writing to thank you. Talked to service. They called Subaru. They say damage probably happened while head gaskets were bad and not during the repair but because we followed maintance recommendations and car had such low milage, they made us a Good Will offer. They will split the diffence on the repair and do for $2500 instead of $5000. Replacement engine from Subaru with 3 year 36000 mile warranty.
Sandra
Had coolant blowing out of radiator into over flow jug. So I had HG replaced. Also new thermostat, timing belt, pulleys, and water pump. now it shows a sharp temperature rise almost 3/4 gauge. I have run at low speeds and it still happens. I put Subaru conditioner in as soon as I picked up vehicle from shop. what is the problem? I cant get any air bubbles out. So I guess that it is not a bubble in system. top and bottom hoses are warm but bottom is cooler than top. any suggestions?
Why not take it back to the shop and ask them to give you the car back when they have fixed the right way? Sounds like an air pocket, or something went wrong with the repair?
Thermostat is with spring up into water pump. fan relay is ok I removed it and used another that is good. where is fan switch. or is it a sending unit, with three wires into water jacket, under intake?
I have a 2004 Legacy Outback wagon with 226k miles on it. Have had a slight oil leak for years and my mechanic is watching it and said for now I could hold off on repairs. My question is with this many miles would you repair the head gasket or anything over $1,000 on it, or purchase a another car? I would be happy to get to 250k on it before buying a new/used car.
Thats really up to you the car will continue to be of good use to you as long as you are willing to put money into it.
A new car is the same story except you pre pay to not have to pay for repairs.
Rather than draw a line in the sand at 250k, its better to do what feels the best to you and your bank account.
Hey Justin, epic info at hand. Thanks in advance.
Here’s my dilemma: I own an 01 Outback. Purchased privately in 05 for $13,500 with 60K on the clock. Had some trouble over the years,
At 70K: after a $400 service to prepare for a road trip, 2 days later, 100 miles from home, the computer shuts down on the highway at 70mph resulting in a towing to the nearest town and a $500 alternator; never returned to that service center.
At 90K: a rev/acceleration issue that made crossing traffic a regular game of dare-Took a service centre 3 attempts and a cool $1,000 bucks to “tune it up” and finally fix a sensor which by then, I made them pay for. Never returned to that service centre.
A seemingly undiagnosible check engine light that has been on for most of my ownership. Going away for short periods of time after services only.
At 130K – NOW: Head gasket, timing belt, water pump, seals, thermostat, plugs, left axle, rack and pinion, $3,200. Independent service shop. Been honest thus far.
If I fix it, what else can go wrong? Transmission? Right axle? Rods? Is this thing a lemon or has it been poor workmanship? I’m doing about 10K/yr and I’d like another 70K if it’ll last.
I’m looking at several 06 Outbacks with 50/60K on them for $13,000. Am I walking into another repeat performance? Should I move up to more reliable model years like 2010 outbacks or foresters? I’m all about the cheaper options and keeping my savings in the bank, but surely at some point there is a line in the sand?
Can you please help me?
Cheers
Matt
Hi Matt,
Sounds like a lot of the issues you have had have been non vehicle related and rather a lot to do with where it was serviced.
Trans and rod issues are not the norm. But neither is a non repairable check engine light.
With out first hand knowledge of your car, it’s tough to advise you. This is the issue with not having a good relationship with a service provider from day one with a new to you used car.
What to do from here, buying another car is expensive, fixing what you have is painful but less expensive. If you have changed the trans fluids and engine oil as they should have been then there is no reason to expect failure.
Doesn’t mean it can’t happen just that it wouldn’t be typical.
Hope that helps
Justin
First, thanks much for all the great info on your site. I have a 2008 outback that I love, it is my second, after a 1998 that I drove for over 200k and had HG problem. Thought it had been fixed in newer models, but after reading your blog and getting estimate from our mechanic I am learning differently. This one has 78k miles. Mechanic is long-serving independent, with more than 20 years of reliable service to us. He has told me for the past two oil changes (every 5000 miles, synthetic oil) that there was a small leak in water pump which we have been watching, he originally suggested doing timing belt a bit earlier than normal at which time he would replace water pump.This time tells me that water pump seems the same but that HG’s are leaking and need replacement. He gives an estimate of $3500 with timing belt and water pump. This seems high looking at other estimates on your and other sites. Do you agree? He also mentioned that Subaru seems to have corrected the problem with the turbo gaskets and that because of that they replace failing ones with turbo gaskets to prevent future problems. Reasonable?
I really love my outback ( though I have noticed that the AWD does not seem quite as stable as in my old one) and don’t want to replace it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
Ann
P.s. BTW he also said I need both front lower ball joints at $585 w/ alignment. Are these problems related? Thanks.
Hi Ann,
First off the AWD in the 2008 has a different torque split front to rear than the 1998 and some find it to provide less traction.
We don’t use the turbo gaskets as we have found them to fail internally. The turbo gaskets were designed for a lower compression turbo engine and just don’t hold up internally. Before using the six star gasket this is one of many things I tried. I know this has been a trend and some have had success, I can only comment on my experiences.
You would be better off with the updated Six star which addresses this issue with a fire ring on the center shim, or the genuine in my opinion.
The 2008 with a coolant leak will have a warped head. The price seems high but I done know the market in your area to really be able to comment on that.
Justin
Justin,
Many thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my dilemma. I’m going to bite the bullet and have the repairs done. I believe that your advice to develop a relationship with a reliable, independent service provider is right on. Lets hope the team I’ve been dealing with is the long term answer. Otherwise I’m driving across the country to give you my business, which I would do, except for a blown head gasket.
You’re a legend!
Cheers
Matt
Thanks for the kind words, heres to your ownership experience improving.
Justin
Hello, Justin.
I have a 2001 Legacy L wagon (200k miles) with a leaking head gasket (oil). Do you think the Bar’s head gasket sealer will get me a little farther down the road, or is it likely a waste of time?
Thanks for your time.
Stevie
Hi Stevie,
So the oil flows though the oil galleys, and the coolant through the coolant passages, they never cross or mix.
Bars Head gasket sealer is poured into the cooling system where it will slowly destroy the entire cooling system is hopes of staving off a repair. There is nothing you can put into the cooling system to cure a Head gasket leaking oil.
Plase use the search feature of this website and use the search term “stop leak” to understand my opinion of snake oil.
Thanks
Justin
Hi Justin,
This is my final post. First off, I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply to my posts. It’s unusual for someone to give of their time like you do.
We finally got rid of the 2007. There had just been too many problems and I really had gotten to the point that I just couldn’t trust it. We bought a new Subaru, we took a big loss but I have a car I’m not afraid to drive.
This will probably be the last new car we ever buy, and believe me when I say we will pay for it, I wish things had worked out differently It’s a silver 2013, so this one we will keep for a long, long, time.
What an expensive lesson to learn at this point in life. I guess I’ll never really know what happened to the 2007 to cause it to have so many problems. It sure fooled us when we bought it.
I looked in to Virginia’s Lemon Law, but I don’t think that would work,
What a hard lesson to learn!
Mona,
If I ever buy another used car, I’ll find you! Lol
Thanks for the update
Justin
Hi mrs Stobb,
First, thanks for these great tips. It will really help me to do this job in order to do it right and also avoid future problems.
I still have some questions concerning the replacement of the gaskets. My first concern is about the resurfacing of the block. If my heads needs to be resurface, do the block have to done too ? If yes, I do I do it.
My second concerns is about the head bolts. As an aircraft maintenace technician, I know that these kind of bolts may have a special sequence to tork it, and that when they are torqued, they will end up to be elongated in a certain way. Do you recommand to replace all of them.
My last request is about the shopping list. Do you have a basic standart parts list to purchase when you have to do this job (exhaust gasket, spark plug gasket, etc….). It’s for a 2.2L engine installed on a Legacy Brighthon 1999.
Again thank you for your future help !!!
Vincent
I’ll see if I can get a hold of Mrs Stobb for you.
But in the meantime, the head bolts are up to you, Subaru has never stated they need to be replaced, we sell them to the DIY crowd, and replace them on an as needed basis at the shop only.
The block surface can be block sanded.
Yes we can put together a Custom package for you. Here is a from to fill out.
http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-parts-3/
Justin
Thank Justin !!!
I have some other questions since I continu to read about this repair. I just did my timing belt 3 months ago, and I take the time to replace the water pump, the seals, and the termostat.
Like the engine runs hot for a short period of time, do I have to replace the water pump again ?
And what about the tensionner. When I inspect it, it was looking pretty good, per the Haynes manual inspection guidelines. Is it mandatory to replace it ?
Thanks and have a great day !
Vincent
Did you replace the tensioner, if not than yes or your gambling.
If the car overheated anything in the cooling system was subjected to temperatures they were not designed to work within. Another words the thermostat can become damaged, as can the Water pump seal the effects of the overheat may not be immediately apparent to you and rather can show up 6 months later. So its really up to you what you want to do. On the one hand its more expensive now but there is less risk, on the other hand if you can do the work later and your ok with the risk of being stranded than maybe you leave it as is.
Justin
Justin, I want to thank you for all the advises ! I just finish the job (head gasket replacement), and the car started on the first crank !!
Only one small problem, it looks like the engine is not well timed. It may be the my timing belt reinstallation that is the problem, but the Check Engine light came on, and the code that I read is about the Cam Shaft Position Sensor.
Do a bad timing will cause this warning, or it’s simply a failure of the sensor, that may have been damage during the different manipulations: removal, re-facing, re-installation…..
I will wait for your assumption, before re-opening the timing-belt cover.
Vincent
It sounds like you may in fact have the belt at least two teeth off or a problem arose with either the cam or crank senors.
Justin
Scott,
Thank you for all of your information. I undoubtedly have a cracked/leaking head gasket internally on my 2005 Subaru Forester (not turbo). Overheating, and visible signs of leakage now.
Is it possible for you to have both an internal and external leak?
I am at 169+K miles…so am not as upset as those who may have hit the 102K mile mark.
I rolled out of the dealership with 5 miles that I put on test driving the car, and really love my Subie Roo as it is affectionately called.
Having heard and read that they can run 300K miles (with maintenance that is bound to occur) of course.
My feeling is I would rather invest the money in completing quality repairs and keep on rolling, than buy another vehicle (Used) and start repairing all of its problems.
I wish that I could bring my vehicle to you for repairs. She is sitting in the drive until I can find the right person to do the job…wouldn’t happen to know anyone in Indiana that thinks like you would you?
Is there anything else you would recommend be addressed when they have the engine pulled, besides the timing belt?
I don’t have an endless budget sadly, so that will factor, but wanted to ask while I was doing my research.
Oh BTW…I did have my thermostat changed a few years ago as the Catalytic Converter and O2 Sensors x 2…I will have to check if Subaru changed the thermostat or it was the other shop.
IF it was not Subaru, should I have the thermostat changed as well to have an OEM put in lest I will have new guts on the other areas and a lousy thermostat (possibly if not done by Subaru)
Thank you for your very informative and clearly presented information. I am a 48 year old woman who does not work on cars (people…I am a nurse) and I clearly understood everything you conveyed in these posts on the HG’s.
I am proud to say that I have been good about checking and having oil/fluids changed, although I am sure no one has been checking for leaks as you described. My battery and cables also looks great so that is a plus!
Again, many thanks~
Tammy
I have a 2001 Subaru Outback with only 52,000 miles on it. I have never had any problems except a small oil leak. which developed around 5 years ago. I monitored it, oil changed regularly along with coolant and all recommended fluids. I did the warranty replacements and recommendations at 30,000 miles. Just replaced my valve cover gasket, spark plugs ( which had some oil around the spark plugs), A/C belt, P/S be;t, radiator cap, transmission fluid drained and filled, timing belt, radiator flushed. Another shop had just replaced my whole steering rack thinking it was the cause of the leak. It wasn’t, they gave me my money back.
I lived, until a year ago, in the mountains where it went short drives and a monthly or two, 30 miles up and down the mountain. A yearly drive of 400 miles on the freeway.
A year ago, I retired down the mountain and now I only make short drives. It still leaks oil one drop a day. It has never overheated, no warning lights ever came on, no white smoke out the back. Oil levels are good. But, now my overflow coolant container had gone down, from almost full to almost to the low point. My radiator level looks fine.
Does this mean I need either HG replacement or my block is cracked? I’m out of money, but the car has such low mileage, I need it to last. Thank you.
Hi Molly,
The water does evaporate in the overflow bottle, its normal to use a cup in between oil changes depending on the way its used, or it could have a small coolant leak, but no its not a cracked block.
Justin
Whew, no cracked block, but could it be I need Head gaskets? I’ve had a couple of shops tell me that is probably why I leak a drop of oil each day from the left (driver’s) side. Thank you for answering me.
Thank you, Justin. Two shops told me the oil leak was from the head, probably a head gasket needed to be replaced. I am shocked because , as I mentioned my 2001 Subaru has been well cared for and only has 52k on it. I think they were stumped as to what is causing the one drop of oil a day for years now. I can smell a slight burning oil smell when I drive my car, but goes away as the car cools (for years now)
The coolant was filled 2-3 months ago and I was surprised to see it drop as I haven’t driven the car much. It has been very cold here lately. My handicapped son has a few nearby doctor appointments and seizures so I really need the car for emergencies and to go to the pharmacy or store. I”m retired with very little money, but will put the $2000 on my card if my car needs a new head gasket, sadly.
Does the coolant need a ‘conditioner’? They looked for a leak last time and found nothing. There isn’t any coolant spraying over the engine from what i can see, but maybe underneath?
Hi Molly,
If its just an oil leak, the repair can be put off and budgeted for, its when its a coolant leak, or internal that it absolutely must be done or in the rare circumstance that the oil leak from the Head gasket becomes very severe..
Justin
Great article. Many thanks. We have a 2007 Outback which so far is not leaking although our old ’98 2.5 litre did have the head gaskets changed. I am thinking of buying a 2013 Crosstrek with the 2.0 litre engine. Any idea how the head gaskets in these are likely to hold up?
Ugh.. I’ve been thinking of picking up a 2012 Legacy with the 2.5 but after reading about the hg problems I am now very leery about doing it.. I am anal about oil and coolant changes with all of my cars and always service @ the dealership but it almost seems this doesn’t matter.. Also it seems after 2010 there have been some improvements made for this problem if I am not mistaken?
skip it- get a honda or toyota and never look back.
So Honda and Toyota as well as VW Dealers dont have a service department?
What I sugest is heading over to the Toyota, Honda and VW forums and tell everyone there that complains about the issues with their perfect car to lay off the crack.
Best of luck..
Justin,
The service that you provide here is priceless – well done! The points you make about warranty vs. customer pay are spot on. You preach maintenance and that is what I am all about. I am an ex-Ford mechanic (16 years) that is meticulous about my cars. I know what vehicles Ford produces that are plagued with issues and what they make that can last easily 250k + with just routine maintenance.
My wife would like to get an Outback or Legacy so I started doing some research about them. Immediately the head gasket issue is discovered. A company like Subaru, with a very limited engine selection, must be able to solve a chronic issue such as this. From what I see, this has been going on for over a decade. The engineers only need to focus on a couple of engine designs – FIX IT! All of their eggs are in one or two baskets. Is it an engineering design flaw, a production issue, a component issue – FIX IT!
People get what they deserve if they refuse to perform routine maintenance, but those that do maintain a rigid maintenance schedule should not see this issue if it is an electrolysis or PH coolant issue.
I didn’t want to buy a new one to find they are crap, so I was looking at vintage 2007-2010. I found a Legacy with 52K and was going to look at it, but I’m having my doubts.
How is this DOHC engine that looks to have started with the Forester a couple of years ago and has migrated to the Outback? I would hope that they attempted to fix this HG problem.
Anyway, keep up the good work. You are educating many and that is always a good thing.
The FB series should have more surface area so that should help.
I am looking at purchasing a Car Fax 1-owner certified/service records/no accidents etc etc 2006 SUBARU OUTBACK 2.5 I LIMITED with 73,000 miles for 14K from a dealer…would you buy it if it were you? It was such a nice car and nice drive…advice?
Thx.
Its never my suggestion to ever buy a car without a prepurchase inspection.
Justin
Oh yes, I meant assuming it passes of course. It’s going to my mechanic’s shop today. I just meant, the year and model given the hit or miss aspect of the repairs they seem to need?
Hi Justin,
Fantastic article. Really appreciate it. I love my 2004 Baja Turbo(manual). Lately, I’m experiencing intermitten stalling. Sometimes it will take a lot of cranking before starting. When running, the engine runs as smooth as silk.
I took it to Subaru today to be repaired. They said said they found a crimped hose and it should be fine. Five minutes after picking the car up I was pulling away from a traffic light and it stalled. I nearly got rear ended. It took two minutes of cranking and then it ran fine. I drove back to the Subaru dealer. The mechancic said it probably needs plugs. I highly doubt plugs are needed when the engine runs so strong and smooth when running. I’m thinking fuel pump, but I really don’t know. Any suggestions?
Jim in NH
It could be the fuel pressure Regulator, a simple fuel pressure and volume test WHEN its acting up should prove it good or failing.
Justin
Hi Justin:
I own a 2004 (H4- Auto) Outback closing in on 90K miles. I’ll need Head Gaskets soon, and have questions regarding the HG repair and piston slap.
My car was diagnosed with piston slap at 2k miles. This isn’t something that developed over time. I would hate to spend a large amount of money on a repair and
discover 2 years later that the piston slap that has taken place over the past 9 years has now “seized” the compression and oil control rings (or will not allow them to expand). I’m now stuck with a motor with reduced horsepower and poor gas mileage that consumes a great amount of oil.
Questions:
Will you be able to assess the condition of the piston rings and cylinder bores after taking the heads off?
What would be the game plan if the rings/bores are showing damage beyond normal for a vehicle with 90K?
Lastly, Are your head gasket repairs performed by Master Technicians?
Thank you.
Hello Ted,
Will you be able to assess the condition of the piston rings and cylinder bores after taking the heads off? No only the cylinder walls
What would be the game plan if the rings/bores are showing damage beyond normal for a vehicle with 90K? Our Rebuild, or Subaru Shortblock
Lastly, Are your head gasket repairs performed by Master Technicians?
We employ 4 of the hardest working consciousnesses Subaru Technicians you will come across, they are also enthusiasts, once you leave a Subaru Dealership you are no longer allowed to claim that you are a “Master Subaru Technician”.
I assure you that our shop cares much more about doing a quality job than anyone at a Subaru Dealership.
Thanks
Justin
Great post Justin. I work at an independant shop owned by my father. That block sanding tip is awesome! A very good alternative to using a whiz wheel. Thanks for this post, i will be using a sanding block on all future head gasket jobs i do.
HI Steven,
Thanks for the Feedback.
Justin
Justin
Great article. Good points all around. As owner of an 09 Outback I am going to watch for this of course. Do you have any experience or opinions on synthetic oil vs. conventional oil and if so how often or how many miles does your shop recommend changing synthetic.
Thanks so much.
Hello Bob,
What I always suggest is to be honest with your self about how you use the Subaru and maintain it based on that use.
For example, if you drive the Subaru in stop and go traffic for your Commute and use it for frequent short trips I suggest every 3000 miles regardless of what you use. However if your commute is more like a 30 minute trip at freeway speeds both directions and the Subaru is seldom used for short rips, I would suggest 5000 miles is possible.
The problem is that Subaru just like every other car company tells you that normal use =7000 miles (non Turbo) without clearly defining normal in the owners manual.
We use blend and for most of the cars we service unless it requires Synthetic. The mileage is again up to how its used, its a touchy subject that in all honesty I wish was clearer from the Car makers, so there was less arguments.
Thanks
Justin
2006 Baja – (not turbo) 215,000 miles- regular servicing including belt change t 100 and 200 thousand miles, tune up, etc.
Check engine light came on; at same time overheating unless running heater full blast. runs rough when cold, runs smooth when warms up.
2 different shops looked it. One said headgasket – other said not headgasket- clogged radiator
Replaced radiator, air filter and o2 sensor. light off, no longer overheats – but still idles and runs rough (hesitates) when cold.
Any suggestions before we have more work done?
Hi Lizzy,
All I can suggest is a diagnoses for the rough running my gut tells me some one neeeds to drop the exhaust and inspect the valve guides for shift, I would also be concerned that the overheat issue is only temporally resolved.
Hope that helps
Justin
A couple of weeks ago I noticed accumulating on the top of the engine under the intake. So I pulled the intake fuel lines, and everything else on top of the engine to get a closer look. I didn’t discover anything abnormal that would cause the leak. Can HG failures cause oil accumulation on top of the engine? What are some other possible causes for this???
Thanks
Derek
Depends on which engine you have, but one of the breather hoses is most likely at fault or the power steering pump?
An idea for you is to take a picture, and get that to us some how if you cant see to localize it your self, but typically speaking the HG dont leak up.
Hope that helps
Justin
Justin,
Thanks for this informative article.
I am on my 2nd Outback. Our 2002 model had the HG issue at 110,000. Cost about $1600 in Chicago area about 3 or 4 years ago. (Wish I read it back then… I hope my shop used the block sanding method.)
We just purchased a 2013. I saw earlier in this thread some discussion about a separate cooling system (or some other modicfication) in the 2013 models, but at the time they had not come out yet, and you did not know about it.
Have you been able to find out if this is true? (I hope so) Did they change the path of the coolant?
Do you “think” it will help?
Thats someone being confused, the block and head configuration is still the same with some improvements to the surface mass in the FB series engines.
Justin
Hi Justin,
I probably sound like a broken record in saying that I really appreciate this website and all the work you have done! Yesterday I checked the oil in my 2004 Forester XT 5-sp with 97k miles and discovered that not only was the level low it had a milky color to it. I’m no expert but I know thats not good and probably indicative of coolant getting into the crank case. Am I right in this assessment? And is there another way for coolant to contaminate oil than through the head gaskets (ie crossover o-rings?)
Really wish I didn’t live in Rhode Island so I could take it to you. Don’t trust the local Subaru dealer :/ I’m prepared to pay $2200 for the repair (both heads, timing belt, water pump) but would love a sanity check!
Andrew
It could just be and most likely is just some condensation in the crankcase brought on by the low oil level, increased heat and moisture as a result of.
Start with a oil change with good oil, good filter and monitor it.
If its truly got coolant in the oil, its probably beyond a HG issue.
Justin
Poked my head underneath last night and did not notice any oil coming from the HG area. Did notice a few drops from the plug so tightened it up. Will take your advice. Thanks again!
Hi Justin, love your blog.
I have a 2000 outback auto. trans w/60k which had a burning oil smell. The 1st shop changed the right driveshaft b/c they said the C/V boot split and was throwing grease on the exhaust. After the drive shaft and seal were replaced, the problem still existed. I brought it to a somewhat less expensive shop and they suggested I replace the left side drive shaft. I’ve done that and the trans seal there as well. Problem still exists. We steam cleaned the top and bottom of the motor and after that they pointed out a small transmission leak near where the exhaust comes together under the motor. They replaced some seals there, but unfortunately it seems to be still making the odor. I dropped it off again today and the mechanic mentioned that he thought maybe the seal would “pop out” of place or something due to some wear in the transmission. The car only has 60k on it. I bought it at 54k and already put over 5k$ into it (heads, oil pump leaks, trans pan leak, leaking idler pully, timing belt, etc), so it’s making me cry now. Recommendations?
THanks!
-pat
Hi Pat,
Thanks for the feedback. Its hard to say from here if you still have a leak causing a smell or if there is still some stubborn residue that needs to burn off. We encounter plenty of vehicles that stink for quite some time (months) after repairs, the exhaust is going to act like a self cleaning oven and need to burn off any fluid that was trapped in between the exhaust and the heat shield.
I will add that CV grease from a CV boot leak is a very heavy grease that can really be stubborn to burn off. Steam cleaning just cant reach the cracks and crevices.
I guess if the car came here we would do the best job we could of evaluating if it has a leak that needs to be repaired or if there is some residue that still needs to burn off this usually involves more than one visit, I will add that the more shops that become involved the harder the process becomes.
Sorry I cant offer more, but its just not feasible without seeing whats actually going on.
Justin
Justin,
New to this thread/website today, but let me tell you, you da man!
ok, thank you
so the wifes 2006 impreza check engine light went off, and i thought it was the 02 sensor at first, and in attempt to self diagnos, pulled the negative cable off to reset the light, 98 miles later it came on. after watching it solid, it flashed a couple of times, then went solid again.
she also noted of some sluggishness and the next time i was in the car, i felt it too from start and also noticed it going into 3rd often. again, i thought it was now plugs and cables, she hasnt serviced the car well and never had a tune up.
i sucked it up and took it to pep boys for a diagnosis and they found, guess what? a whole bunch of stuff. a slow leak from the HG, need for a timing belt (100k miles, so obvious) plus the kicker, the light was from the CAT.
I was reading elsewhere, you are ok with a CAT, but absolutly not a leaking HG, i understand, btu how much time do you think one would have with a “slow leak”? i also figured, they could have made it sound like dire straights if i didnt do it right then, so maybe i have some time? i know you are a fan of saying, you never know when its going to go. any advice? ive already started to car shop, another suby though!
Hi Jeremy,
The leak at the head gasket and the check engine light are not related most likely. Whenever a check engine light is flashing, it indicates a cylinder misfire so if the plugs and wires were replaced and the flashing check engine light subsided that would make sense.
If its a slow oil leak it can wait, if its leaking coolant from the HG it cant.
Cant put a time metric on it.
No reason to buy another car, it will cost you much less to repair the 2006 you already own vs buying another car.
The timing belt is due at 105k and if you do it in conjunction with a HG repair it will save you hundreds in labor.
Hope that helps
Justin
Hi Justin,
Just had HG done one my 07 NA Legacy. 130,000 miles. Independent service center put the six point HG in, timing belt, water pump and Terra Cleaned as there was major carbon build up. Car is running fine except for a very noticeable ticking sound that developed when I lift off the accelerator. On full acceleration it sounds fine. Changed to Rotella T6 oil and the sound has been reduced but it is still there.
The service guys say this is the sound of a normal 2.5 engine but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t there previously. Would this be my imagination or my paranoia?
Thanks. You have a wonderful web site.
Hi Kevin,
It could be normal and your just hyper sensitive after having a major repair or maybe there is a valve out of adjustment, it happens.
I am thinking if the shop has had a chance to listen to it and thinks its ok, that maybe it might be ok?
Justin
Wow, i do this work all the time- who the hell would use discs to clean the surface, i use razor blades, new and a bunch of them on each job. And really, these head gaskets leak because it just isn’t made right- think of all the kinds of cars which never blow the head gasket. Think of Hondas where the oil drain plug usually is some variation of thread damage, and Toyotas which never are.
Thanks for the comments, I will add.
Most modern Subaru’s don’t “blow” the head gaskets they slowly over time develop external oil leaks, some will develop an external coolant leak and lastly if the first two symptoms go on for to long it can finally fail internally.
Justin
Has there been any change in the 2013 2.5i engine which appears to address the head gasket issue?
Doug,
The FB series engines found in the 2013 models is a new design coming out first in the 2012 Impreza, as such its not responsible to tell you if there will be an issue without proof one way or another which will in fact only come with time.
Justin
Hello Justin,
A quick question that may be difficult to answer online without seeing the cars, but would I be better off paying more for a used 2004 Forester automatic (160,000km), or risk a cheaper 2.5X 2002 Forester (227,000km)? The 2002 has not had any HG issues, but I think I saw oil seepage from gasket on passenger side. Both will be mechanically checked. The 2002 is AU$5,700 and the 2004 AU$11,500. Just your thoughts please.
Hello Jo,
Really if you can Id have both inspected and buy which ever represents the best value based on any findings during the inspection.
An example would be if the 2002 costs less and needs less regardless of the miles that would be the way I would go as at the end of the day the more money you can keep the better off you are and the 2002 and 2004 are so similar there is no real compelling reason to buy the 2004 unless it turns out to be the better value based on cost, and future immediate expense.
Hope that helps
Justin